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The quest of the ultra religious right and liberal left to destroy Pakistan

Mutakalim

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You seriously have reading and comprehension problems. I said his book 'Juz Raful Yadain' - go read it as it has been translated in Urdu and the quote in red is from this book, but translated in English here. Also don't skip reading what's written on Page 70! Perhaps it is safe to assume that you were absolutely clueless about the existence of this book of Imam Bukhari!
Imam Bukhari wrote Juz Raful Yadain, the same Bukhari who was disciple of Imam Ahmad Bin Hanbal, one of the Imam among Aima e Arba. The same Aima e Arba, who were spreading Tafarkah in their days, according to you.

Now please read again, what I have written in previous posts.
Rest of your post is not worth replying to as it is a repeat of all previous posts.
Then stop accusing followers of Prophet (A.S) for satisfaction of your own ego. I know, you have come to a dead end. Peace.
 

Surya 1

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Since the 1980s, Pakistan has suffered at the hands of the ultra religious mullahs and the ultra liberal lefties in trying to destroy Pakistan. Although both originate from the two polar opposites of the political spectrum, they both have formed a Hegelian Dialectic in trying to destroy Pakistan from within. Both have the same aims in that they want Pakistan to become a vassel state for foreigners where Pakistan can never pursue it's own interest. The religious loonies want Pakistan to be a slave nation to the Arabs and Gulfis wheras the loony left want Pakistan to become a slave nation to india and the west. Both courses of action are unacceptable and if successful, will result in Pakistan becoming the most poorest nation on earth. Another thing that the religious right and lefty liberals both have in common is they greatly fear Pakistani nationalism and self-determination. They both fear Pakistan becoming successful and powerful.

In order to make Pakistan powerful and succesful, I propose the following:

(1) Pakistani nationalism and patriotism becomes the driving force of our country. The blood of EVERY single Pakistani regardless of religion or belief is sacred.

(2) Pakistan INDEPENDENTLY pursues WHATEVER is in our best interest in order to make Pakistan ultra powerful and successsful free from the constraints of whatever non-Pakistanis think or say. Free from the constraints of low IQ mullah retards or treacherous lefty liberals.

(3) We will do WHATEVER is in our interests to liquidate and destroy our ONLY enemy who wishes for the death and destruction of the Pakistani nation and people.

(4) Every Pakistani regardless of religion or belief should be entitled to world-class health care, education, housing, a job and a pension.

(5) Pakistan will do WHATEVER it takes to make Pakistan INTO a fully developed nation regardless of how long it takes or how painful it may be.

(6) Every single Pakistani is equal in the eyes of the law. There will be 0 difference between a Pakistani Muslim, Christain, Hindu, Sikh, Jewish or even devil-worshipping Pakistani.

(7) Anyone found betraying the Pakistani cause should be immediately executed.

(8) We need to strive to make Pakistan corruption free no matter the cost.


What are the thoughts of you guys?
This is Zaid Hamid's dialogue. It has as much substance as other other bluffing of zaid Hamid.
 

Verve

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Imam Bukhari wrote Juz Raful Yadain, the same Bukhari who was disciple of Imam Ahmad Bin Hanbal, one of the Imam among Aima e Arba. The same Aima e Arba, who were spreading Tafarkah in their days, according to you.

Now please read again, what I have written in previous posts.


Then stop accusing followers of Prophet (A.S) for satisfaction of your own ego. I know, you have come to a dead end. Peace.
Being a student of an Aima is irrelevant. Allah can make anyone do what He wants them to do, even an unbeliever. What matters is the outcome and muhaddiths did a fantastic job of the task they were assigned by Allah. Their work is the foundation that is already exposing and damaging all sects as Hadith books are at finger tips of public now, in one phone app. Babay/buzurg/peer/ulema parast munkar-e-Hadith are shirnking in size as more and more turn to Quran and Hadith.

Unfortunately you don't seem to believe in obtaining knowledge of Deen directly from Quran and Sunnah. Must be reserved for ulema only! You have been brainwashed by ulema who claim that trying to understand Quran directly can lead one astray, and this is what you are trying to prove here. What is it that you lot say - how many alooms does one need to possess to understand Quran for guidance?

If I quote Quran, you try to fit me in some sect. If I quote Hadith, you try to fit me in some other sect. If I reject the sects, you try to fit me in another sect. This is typical behaviour of a sectarian!

There is no provision in Islam for sects and divisions. It's the so called alim who came up with this 'differences in opinion is a blessing by Allah' statement before Aima's time to justify forming their own groups.

People are leaving sects. It is refreshing to see that those who reverted after reading and understanding Quran are not being infected by this disease of jahliya!

Peace to you too.
 

Verve

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I dont associate myself to any sect or any group. As far as my beliefs are concerned, I follow the Manhaj and way of Ahl us Sunnah in Asool, as understood by majority of Salf, Muhadiseen and Mujtahideen.
Coming back to this quickly.

Glad you cleared that. I believe in following Quran and Sunnah - which would make me a Sunni in Asool too but I do not believe in calling myself sunni (as name given to us in Quran is Muslim) and I also don't believe that calling out bidats introduced by ulema/buzurgs/babays of all sects makes me something else. I will take any explanation of any Aima or listen to any alim of any sect as long as I have clear and complete references to Quran and Hadith (without warping of context) to verify. Allah instructs us to refer to Him (Quran) and Prophet (S.A.W) (Sunnah - Hadith) when there are differences - I try my best to follow this command.

I also do not believe all the sects to be wrong in everything however each group has taken firm stances on a fair number of acts and beliefs leading them to become bidati in accepting or rejecting these acts/beliefs. You know very well every sect and I have given some examples. Despite being born in Hanafi family, I believe this sunni sect is the worst one of all sunni sects.

Prophet (S.A.W) delivered us the complete Deen. And Deen is preserved in Quran and Sunnah only. There are no ifs and buts in this. Qazi Abu Yusuf was a a very close disciple of Abu Hanifa and it was him who ordered torture of Imam Maalik for going against the forced divorce validation fatwa issued by him. So the whole narrative of 'disciples of Aimas' is false and this is a big curse that severely damaged the Ummah. It goes from disciples of Aima to their disciples to their disciples and it is never ending, making the fissures larger with each generation past. Good and bad disciples are for all to see.

Abu Hanifa was a disciple of Ata Ibn Abi Rabah, who was one of the earlier muhaddiths and he used to do Raful Yadain (Hadith he recorded on it and his conversation with Abu Hanifa on it is in books). But Abu Hanifa rejected and even mocked Raful Yadain (as recorded in Juz Raful Yadain by Imam Bukhari). And Abu Hanifa held him in the highest regards yet differed with him on such a major Sunnah!

I do not believe any of the 6 main muhaddiths contributed to the divisions in Deen, in fact I believe their role to be one of uniting the Ummah as they always hoped for their work to do. It is now finally beginning to bear fruit with people beginning to rejects sects. I reject them in a somewhat blunt way whereas you reject them in the conventional historic soft way (that has not worked in past 1200 or so years).
 
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I agree except point no. 6. It is against Quaid e Azam's vision. He refused to let non-Muslims even join the Muslim League after independence. And also history shows us that its dangerous to trust minorities. Pakistani Hindus of Bengal turned Bengali Muslim students into anti-Pakistan traitors because we allowed them to dominate the educational institutions in East Pakistan. Pakistan ought to be foremost for its Muslims.
Man you are an extremist. Nothing separates you from RSS, BJP who calls Indian muslims as traitors and far right white extremists who claims that muslims will force Sharia In europe.
Yes, and no country ever in this world became great by appeasing its minorities like we do. Pakistan is a Muslim country first, the rest is tolerated. Our whole nationhood is build on that principle that we are Muslims. Everything else leads to ethno-fascism and degeneration.
Pakistan appease minorities? Are you for real?

Indian muslims are buttered like nothing. You can ask any common Hindu in India who are fed up with the fact that muslims are given unfair privileges in the form of reservations, hajj subsidy and what not.

Compare to that Pakistan did nothing for its minorities apart from letting them exists as a sidekick not even a true citizen.
 

Mutakalim

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Being a student of an Aima is irrelevant. Allah can make anyone do what He wants them to do, even an unbeliever. What matters is the outcome and muhaddiths did a fantastic job of the task they were assigned by Allah.
Being a student of a teacher may be irrelevant in all other fields except Hadith. In hadith, the reliance of transmission is solely dependent on truthfulness of the transmitter. If a disciple is found lying about his Shaikh, then its consensus of Muhadiseen that all his transmissions will be rejected. If we accept your proposition that Aima e Arba were responsible for spreading Tafarkah, then we must have to deal with character of those individuals who declared them truthful and who wholeheartedly accepted their authority. Now, their can be two possibilities. First, Bukhari, Muslim and all Muhadiseen were unaware of the true character of these Aima, which makes them ignorant of highest order .Second, they were liars and concocted the biggest ever fraud in the history of ilm ul Hadith. Choice is yours.

I have tried to present my humble argument in so many ways, but it seems to me that you are stubbornly sticking to your not very thoughtful accusations. For almost 1200 years of Ahl us Sunnah, no one has ever accused Aima e Arba of spreading Tafarkah. I think, while making this accusation you have made a mistake in the heat of argumentation. Mistakes can happen from all of us, after all we are not perfect.

Their work is the foundation that is already exposing and damaging all sects as Hadith books are at finger tips of public now, in one phone app. Babay/buzurg/peer/ulema parast munkar-e-Hadith are shirnking in size as more and more turn to Quran and Hadith.
While defending work of Muhadiseen, your accusations against their Shayukhs are proving detrimental to your argument. Moreover, if following other Muslims is Shakhsiyat parasti then unfortunately, biggest Shakhsiyat parast were Muhadiseen and worst Buzurg parast are their followers. (Naoz o Billah)

Unfortunately you don't seem to believe in obtaining knowledge of Deen directly from Quran and Sunnah.
That is the worst allegation anyone can level against a Muslim. Well lets see if you will be able to prove this in the afterlife or not.

Must be reserved for ulema only! You have been brainwashed by ulema who claim that trying to understand Quran directly can lead one astray, and this is what you are trying to prove here. What is it that you lot say - how many alooms does one need to possess to understand Quran for guidance?
I dont represent any lot brother. You are doing the same thing which you are accusing to others. I dont know why anger and hatred is reflecting from your every word. Why such frustration?

There is no provision in Islam for sects and divisions. It's the so called alim who came up with this 'differences in opinion is a blessing by Allah' statement before Aima's time to justify forming their own groups.
So, in Islam we can not form groups?

Glad you cleared that. I believe in following Quran and Sunnah - which would make me a Sunni in Asool too but I do not believe in calling myself sunni (as name given to us in Quran is Muslim) and I also don't believe that calling out bidats introduced by ulema/buzurgs/babays of all sects makes me something else.
Every other sect besides Ahl us Sunnah, except few, believe that they are followers of Quran and Sunnah. What distinguishes Ahl us Sunnah from others are their theological beliefs. I am quite confident that almost all your beliefs would be more or less similar to Ahl us Sunnah. If we call ourselves Sunni to spread hatred, tafarkah and insult based on our beliefs between Muslims then surely we are wrong. However, if we just call ourselves Sunni for the purpose of stating our theological beliefs then there is no harm in it. Islam doesn't stop us from making political, cultural, ethnic or religious groups. However, it does stop us from spreading Tafarkah based on our associations. Our first and most important identity is Islam and this identity is above all other identities, even it is above our national identity. This is my understanding of the issue.

bidats introduced by ulema/buzurgs/babays of all sects makes me something else. I will take any explanation of any Aima or listen to any alim of any sect as long as I have clear and complete references to Quran and Hadith (without warping of context) to verify. Allah instructs us to refer to Him (Quran) and Prophet (S.A.W) (Sunnah - Hadith) when there are differences - I try my best to follow this command.
Agreed.

I also do not believe all the sects to be wrong in everything however each group has taken firm stances on a fair number of acts and beliefs leading them to become bidati in accepting or rejecting these acts/beliefs. You know very well every sect and I have given some examples. Despite being born in Hanafi family, I believe this sunni sect is the worst one of all sunni sects.
You are entitled to hold your beliefs.

Prophet (S.A.W) delivered us the complete Deen. And Deen is preserved in Quran and Sunnah only. There are no ifs and buts in this. Qazi Abu Yusuf was a a very close disciple of Abu Hanifa and it was him who ordered torture of Imam Maalik for going against the forced divorce validation fatwa issued by him. So the whole narrative of 'disciples of Aimas' is false and this is a big curse that severely damaged the Ummah. It goes from disciples of Aima to their disciples to their disciples and it is never ending, making the fissures larger with each generation past. Good and bad disciples are for all to see.
I am not making my argument based on Qazi Abu Yousaf and what he may have done. I am basing my argument on the association of Ashab ul Hadees to these Aima. If Imam Malik, Imam Muhammad, Imam Shafai and Imam Ahmad bin Hambal were involved in spreading tafarkah then their disciples can not be exempted from the allegation.

Abu Hanifa was a disciple of Ata Ibn Abi Rabah, who was one of the earlier muhaddiths and he used to do Raful Yadain (Hadith he recorded on it and his conversation with Abu Hanifa on it is in books). But Abu Hanifa rejected and even mocked Raful Yadain (as recorded in Juz Raful Yadain by Imam Bukhari). And Abu Hanifa held him in the highest regards yet differed with him on such a major Sunnah!
Abu Hanifa was not alone, Sahaba also differed on that issue. If you want to discuss issue of Raful Yadain then we can discuss in seperate thread.
 

Verve

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Being a student of a teacher may be irrelevant in all other fields except Hadith. In hadith, the reliance of transmission is solely dependent on truthfulness of the transmitter. If a disciple is found lying about his Shaikh, then its consensus of Muhadiseen that all his transmissions will be rejected. If we accept your proposition that Aima e Arba were responsible for spreading Tafarkah, then we must have to deal with character of those individuals who declared them truthful and who wholeheartedly accepted their authority. Now, their can be two possibilities. First, Bukhari, Muslim and all Muhadiseen were unaware of the true character of these Aima, which makes them ignorant of highest order .Second, they were liars and concocted the biggest ever fraud in the history of ilm ul Hadith. Choice is yours.
Change of tact I see. Choice is clear - reject all sects. Follow Quran and Sunnah.

Aimas produced fiqh, not Hadith. And their Hadith knowledge was limited as well - that is a fact. Had All 4 Imams had Sahih Bukhari or Sahih Mulsim compilations in front of them at the onset, there likely wouldn't have been 4 schools with major differences! Aimas didn't have 'guaybee' knowledge of Deen, irrespective of false claims made by their followers. Kindly try to ponder on this.

Also they were not teachers of 6 Muhaddiths in the fields of Hadith! Kindly differentiate. Other than Imam Hanbal, which other Aima was a teacher of any of the 6 Muhaddiths?

I have tried to present my humble argument in so many ways, but it seems to me that you are stubbornly sticking to your not very thoughtful accusations. For almost 1200 years of Ahl us Sunnah, no one has ever accused Aima e Arba of spreading Tafarkah. I think, while making this accusation you have made a mistake in the heat of argumentation. Mistakes can happen from all of us, after all we are not perfect.
Tafarakah was bound to develop when fiqh were developed with limited knowledge of Hadith of Aimas. Do you think Aima had more Hadith knowledge than the 6 Muhaddiths? Even all Sahaba didn't know of every Hadith but when another Sahabi told them the Hadith, they accepted it and amended their ways. Ulema of the sunni sects are doing the opposite of Sahaba, in rejecting Hadiths.

While defending work of Muhadiseen, your accusations against their Shayukhs are proving detrimental to your argument. Moreover, if following other Muslims is Shakhsiyat parasti then unfortunately, biggest Shakhsiyat parast were Muhadiseen and worst Buzurg parast are their followers. (Naoz o Billah)
Aimas were not their Shaikhs in the field of Hadith! You have said above that being a student of teacher in all fields except Hadith may be irrelevant and it is irrelevant as Aimas were not specialists in study and knowledge of Hadith. They didn't spend their whole lives travelling collecting Hadith. Even Abu Hanifa said that to reject his fatwas/teachings if the Hadith contradicts them.

So, in Islam we can not form groups?
Not religious groups that differ. Justify otherwise from Quran and Hadith, if you can! Please give specific quotes from Quran and Hadith in your response, not some other narrative. Islam is preserved in Quran and Sunnah ONLY.

If we call ourselves Sunni to spread hatred, tafarkah and insult based on our beliefs between Muslims then surely we are wrong. However, if we just call ourselves Sunni for the purpose of stating our theological beliefs then there is no harm in it.
This is what is happening in reality. Everyone is at each others' throats.

Islam doesn't stop us from making political, cultural, ethnic or religious groups.
Islam does stop us from making religious groups. It is strictly forbidden. I have quoted from Quran and Hadith, but you are not willing to accept those.

I am not making my argument based on Qazi Abu Yousaf and what he may have done.
Qazi Abu Yusuf was a very close and long disciple of Abu Hanifa. Did this student go against what his teacher taught him? Something to ponder over again.

Abu Hanifa was not alone, Sahaba also differed on that issue.
Find me Hadith where Sahaba differed on Raful Yadain! It's a big statement you have made and now you have to give evidence from Hadith where Sahaba (more than 1) differed on this. Have you read Juz Raful Yadain yet?
 
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Mutakalim

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Aimas produced fiqh, not Hadith. And their Hadith knowledge was limited as well - that is a fact.
Lol, what? Are you saying that Hadith knowledge of Imam Malik, Shafai and Ahmad bin Hanbal was limited? Please dont waste my time, I dont have guts to first understand and than reply to such absurdities and nonsensical statements. Peace! Keep living in your lala land.
 

Verve

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Lol, what? Are you saying that Hadith knowledge of Imam Malik, Shafai and Ahmad bin Hanbal was limited? Please dont waste my time, I dont have guts to first understand and than reply to such absurdities and nonsensical statements. Peace! Keep living in your lala land.
I'm not the one living in la la land. You don't have answers, not guts - as I asked, give references to Quran and Sunnah (Sahih Hadith that you and I both agree with) as answers. You call yourself sunni, so only Quran and Sunnah should matter to you (including Sunnah of Khulfa-e-Rashideen) - not these madhabs/sects and their ulema whenever there is conflict or dispute (and they all have major conflicts and disputes).

Imam Malik and Imam Shafai had around 2000 Hadith collection each. Imam Hanbal had the largest Hadith collection (28,000+) but there is no ahle sunnah ijema on this collection (he strongly opposed ijema anyways). Ijema however is on Sahih Bukhari (7,500+ Hadith) and Sahih Muslim (7,500 Hadith).
 
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