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The Pakistan Navy | Transformation from Fledgling Force to a Fighting Machine

Major Sam

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May 8, 2011
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Extremely close perhaps aerodynamically.Lets take a close look at the details since u claim i'm not aware of the 'details' of whats being discussed here.And you aren't the only ones who will use awacs.
See how they match up.

MANUEVREBILITY and PERFORMANCE-

The MOST important parameter of this attribute is THRUST TO WEIGHT RATIO-

Mig-29k-1.09
Jf-17-.82
Clearly latter is completely outmatched.TW ratio under 1 is not ideal.

2nd most important parameter-

WING LOADING-

Assuming both sides carrying Air to air weaponry[as is norm for CAP fighter protecting carriers and escorting jf-17s of the strike package which would amount to around 3.5 tonnes.By empty weight plus air to air weaponry divided by wing area]

Jf-17 - 371 kg/m^2
MIG-29K -390 kg/m^2

Here due to its lighter weight and single engine jf-17 gets advantage.

Other important parameters-

RATE OF CLIMB-

Jf-17 -175m/s
Mig-29k - 330m/s

Large difference in favour of mig-29k here.

G-limit-
Jf-17-8-8.5 G
Mig-29K- 9.5G

ANGLE OF ATTACK-
Mig-29 has traditionally had awesome angle of attack-
Max 45 degrees.
F-16 has around 30 degrees.
I am guessing mig-29 has large advantage over jf-17 here.Feel free to prove me wrong.

In other parameters of performance-

Service ceiling
Mig-29k-57,400 ft
jf-17-55,500 ft
More or less equal.

Speed-
Jf-17-Max MACH 1.6
Mig-29K -Max Mach 2.2
Solid advantage again for mig-29k.

Use of composites-jf-17- none.
Mig-29K-15%
As seen above Mig-29k almost totally outperforms jf-17 in manuevreability and performance.

NEXT-
AVIONICS-

Both fighters have EW suite and radar warning recievers,countermeasures,Digital FBW,HUD [heads up display] and MFD[multi functional display],HMS.

Key parameters-

RADAR-
JF-17-
KJ-7-5m^2 target at 105 kms.Can track 10 targets in BVR mode and engage 2.Can pick up naval targets only at 135 kms.

Mig-29K-
ZHUK-ME-5m^2 target at 120 kms.Can track 10 and engage 4 simultaneously.Can pick up naval targets at 300kms.
Again solid advantage for mig-29k.

IRST tracker-
Mig-29k-yes
jf-17-no
Another clear advantage of mig-29k.

3.ARMAMENT.

9 HARDPOINTS for mig-29k.
7 hardpoints for jf-17.

jf-17.Can carry 3000kg payload.
Mig-29kCan carry 5500 kg payload.

IMPORTANTLY,
Mig-29k can use R-73 ARCHER/HMS combo with high off boresight capability.
Something the AIM-9L or chinese WVR aams are unable to match.
This would give DECISIVE advantage in close combat to mig-29k.THis was found on luftwaffe mig-29s and thats why all western nations built high off boresight WVRs- example-pythn 4/5 for israel,Aim-9X for usa,IRIS-T germany.

Another fact-
Jf-17 is equipped with a single type of BVR-
PL-12/SD-10.An ACTIVE RADAR HOMING weapon.Range 70km-100kms.

Mig-29k-
Can use BVR missiles with 3 different types of guidance,much more difficult for countermeasures to defeat.

SEMI ACTIVE RADAR HOMING-
R-27R alamo-60-80 KM
R-27ER-Max range 130 km.

PASSIVE INFRA RED HOMING-
R-27T-70 kms
R-27ET-130 kms

ACTIVE RADAR HOMING-
R-77/RVV-AE -80 kms.

Thus in all 3 parameters of performance and manuevreability,armament and avionics MIg-29k holds solid advantage.
Therefore the chances of a jf-17 strike package actually threatening carrier after getting through mig-29k umbrella are nearly non existent.
Why using old parameter for JF -17 and new for your Fav Mig :devil::devil: Hypocrate
 

Nishan_101

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Nov 23, 2007
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Sorry but nothing is yet clear not even the displacement of F-22P. Navy is keeping secret as some say F-22P is 2500 tons and some say 3400 tons. And I think there would a possibility that US might going to get back the OHP or may be give 7 more OHPs with upgrades to PN.

Also PN is looking to be interested in have a 2100 tons corvette along with building 8 for FAC Azmat class. INSHA ALLAH this year it might going to start up again.
 

AUSTERLITZ

SENIOR MEMBER
Jun 10, 2008
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Sorry but nothing is yet clear not even the displacement of F-22P. Navy is keeping secret as some say F-22P is 2500 tons and some say 3400 tons. And I think there would a possibility that US might going to get back the OHP or may be give 7 more OHPs with upgrades to PN.

Also PN is looking to be interested in have a 2100 tons corvette along with building 8 for FAC Azmat class. INSHA ALLAH this year it might going to start up again.
F-22P is 2500 tons empty load and 3100 tons full load.Similar to our kamorta class corvette except different roles.

The OHP currently is a floating junk without much modern weaponry,probably used as training ship.It doesn't have any sams.U wanna get 7 more and maintain those,gladly go ahead.As for getting them with us money,us already cut aid and now leaving afghanisthan will continue to shrink military aid as their soldiers are now out of there.
Azmat doesn't have sensors to guide and acquire targets for its missiles i think,needs help from other ships.

In all cases each one is defenceless from supersonic ASCMs and fodder for klub/brahmos.
Pak needs air defence destroyers or just ditch surface fleet and go subs.
 

AUSTERLITZ

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A nice option for PN, PAF and even PAA(instead of Bell_206 and 412):
Kamov Ka-60 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even possible that Russians might give us license production.
Though PN has bought 12 Z-9s.
Why would u want to diversify fleet needlessly and create logistics nightmare unless it gives leap in ability[usually comes at a price,another problem for pak]?If Z-9 works for u stick with it.Secondly unless u buy a LOT i doubt russia will give u anything.
 

Gentelman

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Nov 21, 2012
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All i got was a increase in speed,rate of climb and range,but still lower than migs.
radar upgrade and composites are also there in more updated news if you ever checked with more payload……
PAF have source codes of JFT so who knows if Aim series BVR are also integrated on JFT??:oops:
and Mig 29 is complex and medium weight matured fighter so you are comparing a medium weight with light weight??
JFT still have to be matured
about IRST it is created locally here by AWC and it can also be induced if needed and who knows if even it is induced??
 

Nishan_101

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Why would u want to diversify fleet needlessly and create logistics nightmare unless it gives leap in ability[usually comes at a price,another problem for pak]?If Z-9 works for u stick with it.Secondly unless u buy a LOT i doubt russia will give u anything.
Yeah! you are right. Actually I was also thinking in the same way that if PAC have taken the requirements of helicopters from PAA, PAF, PN, Paramilitary and Disaster Management along with other GoP units of helicopters. Later on get the license from UK and France for:
ASS550 Fennec
Panther/AW109
AW139/Puma(Black Class type helicopter from EU)
Mi-171/AW101

Then I am sure PAC would have a much more others that any one can expect.
 

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

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Sep 19, 2010
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@Contrarian

Instead of posting one liners, you should at least cotribute your thoughts.

@AUSTERLITZ

Your assumptions are based on 'Wide Area Naval Warfare'. However Cdr Abhijit's 'analysis' is based on PN's assets and their capabilities 'according to its war doctrine of sea denial.'

Hizbullah nailed Israelis in Lebanese mountains, Afghan Mujahideen nailed the soviet union in the Afghan mountains, both of whom were no match for the force they were up against,had they been fighting an 'all out war doctrine'.

Before 'cracking up' , show some respect for the author, who's perhaps more qualified on this subject than all of us put together.

And as for Mig-29's, and Orions, PN will have its BVR capable fighters and maritime strike jets around the same time as migs become operational on the IN carrier.

@Neptune

Well PN will not be an 'offensive' force in a classic sense for foreseeable future. Our purpose for the navy is as below.

* Sea denial.
* Limited Sea Control - From Karachi to Gwadar.

* Maintain a sufficent submarine force. Ideally PN should have a fleet of 10-12 submarines including a few U-214s.

* Maintain a credible Anti Air/Surface Warfare capability.

* Establishment of a credible Nuclear Strike Capability.

The article doesn't include PN's recent not so much published coastal defense system. Its a C-602A based Land Lauched Anti Ship Missile System.

Its operational on all terrain mobile launchers,giving us effective coastal defense cabability all the way to the coast of Oman and covers all of the straight of hormoez.

JF-17 block II squadrons carrying, CM-400AKG,C-802A,Exocest, SD-10A BVRAAMs and PL-9Cs,will be handed over to the Navy's air arm. They will be backed by ZDK-03 AWACS and P-3Cs.


I really wish we could join the Milgem program and TF-4000. It would be a great boost to our naval power. BTW PN recently visited Turkey again for an exercise. ;)
is it officially announced or you are telling this news from your sources in Pak.military ... ??:undecided: :pakistan:
 
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Nishan_101

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I think that PN should give the requirement that they will need a cover of about 50-75 fighters like JF-17 till 2020. Like these will be flying from Masroor/Faisal, Pasni and May be Gawadar if an airbase will be formed separately.
 

cchettry

FULL MEMBER

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Sep 1, 2011
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Extremely close perhaps aerodynamically.Lets take a close look at the details since u claim i'm not aware of the 'details' of whats being discussed here.And you aren't the only ones who will use awacs.
See how they match up.

MANUEVREBILITY and PERFORMANCE-

The MOST important parameter of this attribute is THRUST TO WEIGHT RATIO-

Mig-29k-1.09
Jf-17-.82
Clearly latter is completely outmatched.TW ratio under 1 is not ideal.

2nd most important parameter-

WING LOADING-

Assuming both sides carrying Air to air weaponry[as is norm for CAP fighter protecting carriers and escorting jf-17s of the strike package which would amount to around 3.5 tonnes.By empty weight plus air to air weaponry divided by wing area]

Jf-17 - 371 kg/m^2
MIG-29K -390 kg/m^2

Here due to its lighter weight and single engine jf-17 gets advantage.

Other important parameters-

RATE OF CLIMB-

Jf-17 -175m/s
Mig-29k - 330m/s

Large difference in favour of mig-29k here.

G-limit-
Jf-17-8-8.5 G
Mig-29K- 9.5G

ANGLE OF ATTACK-
Mig-29 has traditionally had awesome angle of attack-
Max 45 degrees.
F-16 has around 30 degrees.
I am guessing mig-29 has large advantage over jf-17 here.Feel free to prove me wrong.

In other parameters of performance-

Service ceiling
Mig-29k-57,400 ft
jf-17-55,500 ft
More or less equal.

Speed-
Jf-17-Max MACH 1.6
Mig-29K -Max Mach 2.2
Solid advantage again for mig-29k.

Use of composites-jf-17- none.
Mig-29K-15%
As seen above Mig-29k almost totally outperforms jf-17 in manuevreability and performance.

NEXT-
AVIONICS-

Both fighters have EW suite and radar warning recievers,countermeasures,Digital FBW,HUD [heads up display] and MFD[multi functional display],HMS.

Key parameters-

RADAR-
JF-17-
KJ-7-5m^2 target at 105 kms.Can track 10 targets in BVR mode and engage 2.Can pick up naval targets only at 135 kms.

Mig-29K-
ZHUK-ME-5m^2 target at 120 kms.Can track 10 and engage 4 simultaneously.Can pick up naval targets at 300kms.
Again solid advantage for mig-29k.

IRST tracker-
Mig-29k-yes
jf-17-no
Another clear advantage of mig-29k.

3.ARMAMENT.

9 HARDPOINTS for mig-29k.
7 hardpoints for jf-17.

jf-17.Can carry 3000kg payload.
Mig-29kCan carry 5500 kg payload.

IMPORTANTLY,
Mig-29k can use R-73 ARCHER/HMS combo with high off boresight capability.
Something the AIM-9L or chinese WVR aams are unable to match.
This would give DECISIVE advantage in close combat to mig-29k.THis was found on luftwaffe mig-29s and thats why all western nations built high off boresight WVRs- example-pythn 4/5 for israel,Aim-9X for usa,IRIS-T germany.

Another fact-
Jf-17 is equipped with a single type of BVR-
PL-12/SD-10.An ACTIVE RADAR HOMING weapon.Range 70km-100kms.

Mig-29k-
Can use BVR missiles with 3 different types of guidance,much more difficult for countermeasures to defeat.

SEMI ACTIVE RADAR HOMING-
R-27R alamo-60-80 KM
R-27ER-Max range 130 km.

PASSIVE INFRA RED HOMING-
R-27T-70 kms
R-27ET-130 kms

ACTIVE RADAR HOMING-
R-77/RVV-AE -80 kms.

Thus in all 3 parameters of performance and manuevreability,armament and avionics MIg-29k holds solid advantage.
Therefore the chances of a jf-17 strike package actually threatening carrier after getting through mig-29k umbrella are nearly non existent.
Marvellous job bro..!!
 

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