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The new TAI facilities and national combat aircraft engineering center opened.

merzifonlu

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Murted was the name of the place where that airport was built. In the war between Tamerlane and Yıldırım Beyazit, at that very place, some traitor (mean murted) Anatolian Lords had crossed over to Tamerlane's side and shot the Ottoman Army from behind, at the fiercest moment of the war. That's why the name of that place remained as "Murted" :)

By a strange twist of fate, modern times traitors used the same place as a center of rebellion...
 
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JamD

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@Bilal Khan (Quwa) this thread has given me a case of "Ertugul," which is a condition that I've come up with where you wish you were born in Turkey lol.

Context for Turkish Members: Our PM had the Pakistani state TV run urdu-dubbed episodes of Ertugul tv show and it was massively popular in Pakistan to the point where I know some people who named their kids Ertugul lol.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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@Bilal Khan (Quwa) this thread has given me a case of "Ertugul," which is a condition that I've come up with where you wish you were born in Turkey lol.

Context for Turkish Members: Our PM had the Pakistani state TV run urdu-dubbed episodes of Ertugul tv show and it was massively popular in Pakistan to the point where I know some people who named their kids Ertugul lol.
I'm wondering where all those guys who said Turkey just assembles Western kits and that Pakistan is 'way ahead' are.

If funding doesn't kill, I think the PAF will ask for TFX.
 
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dBSPL

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Completely different evaluations can be made for Hurjet. But MMU's case is quite special. No event, no crisis can shake the determination for this project. Because the conditions in which Turkiye is dragged (or TR dragged itself) make it essential for turkish republic to be tied to the MMU. There is another necessity, which is that the MMU should be implemented as soon as possible. The Turkish air force is not in a position to tolerate the slightest weakness due to geopolitical conditions.

So if the MMU is to be a fully Pakistani-Turkish joint product and the pride of both nations, Pakistan needs to be involved without losing the current opportunity window.

There's a big difference between being part of the development from the ground up and becoming a partner of an already developed system even if you have 'full access'.
 

JamD

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So if the MMU is to be a fully Pakistani-Turkish joint product and the pride of both nations, Pakistan needs to be involved without losing the current opportunity window.

There's a big difference between being part of the development from the ground up and becoming a partner of an already developed system even if you have 'full access'.
Believe me I know. PAF is dragging its feet and not committing to local Azm or TFX-Azm for now. Even now it is too late for any meaningful collab/input from our side if it is to be TFX-Azm, and PAF still hasn't decided. The TFX has gone through a lot of refinement and all PAF is doing is analyzing it to see if it fits the Azm ASR. Once they've done that, they'll decide. At that point it'll be closer to a buy than a collaboration.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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Completely different evaluations can be made for Hurjet. But MMU's case is quite special. No event, no crisis can shake the determination for this project. Because the conditions in which Turkey is dragged (or Turkey dragged itself) make it essential for her to be tied to the MMU. There is another necessity, which is that the MMU should be implemented as soon as possible. The Turkish air force is not in a position to tolerate the slightest weakness due to geopolitical conditions.

So if the MMU is to be a fully Pakistani-Turkish joint product and the pride of both nations, Pakistan needs to be involved without losing the current opportunity window.

There's a big difference between being part of the development from the ground up and becoming a partner of an already developed system even if you have 'full access'.
I don't think the PAF would involve itself in the MMU to a high degree.

Our lack of technical know-how inherently limits how much we can offer on the table. Rather, the main benefit of having Pakistan involved is economies-of-scale. You know, at least strategically, the PAF could purchase a large number of fighters over the long term. In other words, you get both raw procurement output (90-150 units) plus longevity in production (15-20+ years).

In fact, I don't think Pakistan could learn much technically (given its lack of expertise) from the TFX. Rather, a partnership at this stage should go towards restructuring Pakistan's defence industry landscape. So, for example, establish a culture of delegating to the private sector; nurture strong R&D institutions (without "scorty" and parachuted 'general' managers); create better efficiencies and less vertical integration within single organizations, and so on. If we could change the landscape, then the technical expertise will grow.

From a technical standpoint, I think the TuAF and PAF are mostly aligned on what the MMU must be. It seems both need a large, twin-engine fighter capable of deep-strike. I don't think there'd be any variance on the electronics stack or desired munitions capability.

If anything, for the PAF, the real question here would be learning enough about the platform and the underlying technology so that it can carry out munitions integration on its own. @JamD could this theoretically be easier on the TFX thanks to the internal bay? I don't imagine there would be any major aerodynamic issues with adding say an ALCM or SOW internally as there would if we tried integrating under the wings?
 

JamD

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I don't think the PAF would involve itself in the MMU to a high degree.

Our lack of technical know-how inherently limits how much we can offer on the table. Rather, the main benefit of having Pakistan involved is economies-of-scale. You know, at least strategically, the PAF could purchase a large number of fighters over the long term. In other words, you get both raw procurement output (90-150 units) plus longevity in production (15-20+ years).

From a technical standpoint, I think the TuAF and PAF are mostly aligned on what the MMU must be. It seems both need a large, twin-engine fighter capable of deep-strike. I don't think there'd be any variance on the electronics stack or desired munitions capability.
Agreed that TFX and Azm have a shockingly similar ASR. Also agreed that we can be involved customers of the TFX and that is good enough for now! I have been arguing that PAC should commit to the TFX as Azm and focus on ancillary things that it can do like munitions, decoys, subsystems, and even loyal wingman UCAVs to fly along the TFX/Azm.

If anything, for the PAF, the real question here would be learning enough about the platform and the underlying technology so that it can carry out munitions integration on its own. @JamD could this theoretically be easier on the TFX thanks to the internal bay? I don't imagine there would be any major aerodynamic issues with adding say an ALCM or SOW internally as there would if we tried integrating under the wings?
You trade one set of problems with another. I don't think it'll be easier. Probably more difficult simply because it'll be a new learning experience, whereas there is a lot of data/experience with external integration. Store ejection from internal bays can be very tricky if you think about it: the store needs to be safely ejected through the air flowing around the aircraft with its doors open. This airflow varies with speed/attitude and can often be turbulent and very unpredictable. Also, you often need mechanisms to push out stores with enough force (and the correct attitude) to clear the aircraft.
 

dBSPL

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The construction of the Lightning Test Facility has come to an end. With the Lightning Test Facility, lightning effects will be observed on all objects, including aircraft, and the measures to be taken will be evaluated. While the facility is expected to be operational in 2023, the first test activities will be carried out specifically for the National Combat Aircraft. At the Lightning Test Facility, it will be tested that the MMU does not have any physical damage or electromagnetic interference that may impair flight safety due to lightning, and the fuel system will be evaluated.

28889A28-0ABD-481E-8931-E83ECE6D0AC5-780x470.jpeg
 

JamD

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Now this is becoming a trend. The former lead of Azm FGFA program has been removed from the program (I hear due to office politics where his superiors felt threatened by him) and has now started his own private company as well - not sure if he has left the PAF or not - probably has.
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Some updates on Project Azm and pakistani aerospace in general. The FGFA program is in effect dead in the water because of several reasons:
1. Most importantly - lack of technological capacity
2. Lack of funds needed for a project of this scale
3. HR mismanagement - PAC has introduced a 5 year bond that has scared away a lot of talent and a lot of people left. All thanks to a new DG I hear - this thinned out an already scarce workforce.
4. Project bit off way more than it could chew


However, this doesn't mean work has stopped. The much talked about NASTP is set to absorb A LOT of disparate aerospace and aerospace adjacent setups. In particular, AvRID, AvDI, CENTAIC, and a private company venture that is a collaboration between NESCOM-AWC-TAI. These are just the important ones off the top of my head, there are certainly more. So essentially in a year or two everything will be NASTP and that's the name you'd hear - not PAC, AvRID, AvDI etc.

Well this aged particularly well lol.

The construction of the Lightning Test Facility has come to an end. With the Lightning Test Facility, lightning effects will be observed on all objects, including aircraft, and the measures to be taken will be evaluated. While the facility is expected to be operational in 2023, the first test activities will be carried out specifically for the National Combat Aircraft. At the Lightning Test Facility, it will be tested that the MMU does not have any physical damage or electromagnetic interference that may impair flight safety due to lightning, and the fuel system will be evaluated.

28889A28-0ABD-481E-8931-E83ECE6D0AC5-780x470.jpeg
This might be an obtuse question but is the amount of money being spent on this tech zone thing a public figure? In particular, operational expenses and money spent on setting up new infrastructure like this one. I am asking since I am wondering what kind of money Pakistan needs to invest - if it ever gets its hand on it that is.
 

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