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The making of the Kargil disaster Excerpts from Nasim Zehra's book, 'From Kargil To The Coup: Events

Taimur Khurram

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An average Muslim is far safer in India than he is in Pakistan.
A Muslim in Hindustan is degraded and humiliated, he is forced to become an Uncle Tom and abandon Islamic heroes like Ghaznavi or Qasim, and instead worship the enemies of Islam like the Maratha's, Gujara-Pratihara's or Hindu Rajputs. He is forced to abandon his Perso-Arabic alphabet and cannot sacrifice cows on Eid, both of which are integral to a Muslim's identity. His locale will be a poor one, because Hindu's will never dare give Muslims sufficient funds. He will have his laws made for him by Mushrik's with no regard for Islam, e.g the recent banning of triple Talaq and now polygamy might face the same treatment as well. He will be lynched, and nobody will mourn his death because he is viewed as lower than a Dalit. He will be underrepresented in all major institutions, because why should a Muslim be allowed to have any major authority? If a Muslim in Hindustan wants to get anywhere, he has to sacrifice his religion like that Murtad Mr Kalam.

A Muslim is far better off in Pakistan or Bangladesh than in Hindustan.

You can fight us if you want. It's not done you much good so far.
On the contrary, it has allowed us to take large portions of your land from you. Pakistan currently holds roughly 40% of Kashmir and 10% of the Rann of Kutch, both of which were taken from Hindustan, meanwhile Hindustan doesn't hold an inch of Pakistani territory, all it has managed to do is take back minimal amounts of land already lost (e.g the Siachen), and is unable to make any further progress.
 

Jackdaws

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We are the only country in the w

We are the only country in the world made in the name of Islam, Islam is our life, Islam is our way of life and you are no one to comment on it.

We are the only country in the world made in the name of Islam, Islam is our life, Islam is our way of life and you are no one to comment on it.


Read the history of last 5000 years, everytime u have been attacked from west, everytime u have been destroyed, everytime westerns have benefited, do you know why the mountain range of Hindu Kush got it's name?
1. Anyone can adopt any name. It's not what you say, it is what others say. Pol Pot claimed to be a Buddhist monk. He was a mass murderer according to the rest of the world. Your claims are for your consumption and if they make you happy, so be it. Don't force others to accept your viewpoint.

2. Yes - "Hindu kush" is blood of Hindus or some such. The range is not even in our country. So in all likelihood refers to the killing of the ancestors of present day Pakistan. Feel free to celebrate their deaths or mourn them. Again, it's your choice.

What's your point?

A Muslim in Hindustan is degraded and humiliated, he is forced to become an Uncle Tom and abandon Islamic heroes like Ghaznavi or Qasim, and instead worship the enemies of Islam like the Maratha's, Gujara-Pratihara's or Hindu Rajputs. He is forced to abandon his Perso-Arabic alphabet and cannot sacrifice cows on Eid, both of which are integral to a Muslim's identity. His locale will be a poor one, because Hindu's will never dare give Muslims sufficient funds. He will have his laws made for him by Mushrik's with no regard for Islam, e.g the recent banning of triple Talaq and now polygamy might face the same treatment as well. He will be lynched, and nobody will mourn his death because he is viewed as lower than a Dalit. He will be underrepresented in all major institutions, because why should a Muslim be allowed to have any major authority? If a Muslim in Hindustan wants to get anywhere, he has to sacrifice his religion like that Murtad Mr Kalam.

A Muslim is far better off in Pakistan or Bangladesh than in Hindustan.



On the contrary, it has allowed us to take large portions of your land from you. Pakistan currently holds roughly 40% of Kashmir and 10% of the Rann of Kutch, both of which were taken from Hindustan, meanwhile Hindustan doesn't hold an inch of Pakistani territory, all it has managed to do is take back minimal amounts of land already lost (e.g the Siachen), and is unable to make any further progress.
You can believe that if you like - meanwhile more Muslims are killed everyday in Pakistan than in India for their religious beliefs. That's a fact.

What you have stated is a jaundiced opinion cherry picking stereotypes to make you feel better about the fact that more Muslims are killed in Pakistan than in India.

2. Read some history. The part of Kashmir you got/occupy is what you acquired by invading the free state of Jammu and Kashmir. Once India entered the fray, you lost territory and were pushed back. So you lost territory there.

You got 10% of your claim to Rann of Kutch through a British tribunal whose establishment and decision was accepted by both sides. Lol, you consider that some kind of victory? You claim was because the border was not demarcated. So by your own logic, India controls 90% of your claim.
 

EasyNow

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Asalamu Alaikum

In all fairness, the operation was by no means a failure.

We took Point 5353, which even the Hindustani military admits give us complete domination over the area.

Although, Musharraf should have gotten support from other members of the military so that all of Kargil could have been taken, whilst keeping the stupid government out of the loop so it could be retained. However, one does wonder whether the rest of the military would have been spineless like Nawaz.
Wsalaam, bro im not so sure - no army man will admit defeat, the fact that your friend said it was a silly endeavour is quite telling. The politicians in this case are telling the truth as they have nothing to hide here.
 

Bashido

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I think problem lies in the stars of our Generals and that is "Never, ever try to learn from your own mistakes"
 

third eye

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I think problem lies in the stars of our Generals and that is "Never, ever try to learn from your own mistakes"
I don’t think it has anything to do with their stars , it has to do with their brains.

They are forever fighting the last war.

The silly assumption that actions in J&K will remain restricted to that state brought them grief in 65 & in 99 too.

Inability to war game the logistics, consequences & reaction to their acts led to the loss in Laungewala in 71 & 99.

The list goes on.
 

Signalian

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The fact is Pakistan can never defeat India on the conventional front. Never. If there was a chance that has long gone. The simple reason is India is too large. Too humongous. However brave our warriors are they will always face hopeless odds. For instance Belgiums population is nearly 12 million and Germany is nearly 80 million. That Belgium/German disparity in men/resources is about same as Pak/India. From history we know Belgium could never stand up to Germany and was often trampled over within days by Germans. We can get comfort from the fact that we have never been trampled on by India. But defeating India is not on the cards.

Unless you can get your relatives/ethno-religious groups in India [Indian Muslims] to start fighting Indian government like Taliban are fighting NATO, Tajiks of Northern Alliance go as NUG in which case I would support a all out attack on India.
The nuclear war gave Pakistan a leverage for Kargil war because it was learnt in 1971 war that nuclear bomb threat could have prevented the debacle. A conventional war will lead to lead nuclear as soon as a critical point is reached where a nation's existence is threatened.

With Kargil, we learn what we ought to have learnt after 1965; that the policy of freeing Kashmir through limited war has come to an end. No Indian government can surrender Kashmir no matter how succesful a Pakistani limited offensive is, as long as it still has the option of a total war which it will win.

The only option left on the table for Pakistan is a succesful full-scale war.
Militarily its still possible to conduct a war and liberate Kashmir, but it requires lots of assets which Pakistan Armed Forces don't currently possess. Another problem is the western front, it needs to be closed first and it has been precisely opened because India knows Pakistan Military will not sit tight idle and concentrate on Kashmir if its not engaged anywhere else.

I think problem lies in the stars of our Generals and that is "Never, ever try to learn from your own mistakes"
Its more the link between Government and Army. PPP is considered anti-Army Govt and PML(N) was considered pro-Army. Benazir said NO to Brig. Musharraf, while Nawaz said YES to Gen.Musharraf.

Yes, it was a stupid move by Pakistani army--but almost exclusively it was a General Musharraf's personal operation. He's the most anti-India leader in Pakistan since Z.A. Bhutto.
The SSG Ops linked with Kashmir made him concentrate on Kashmir since he was company commander in SSG. After promotion to Brigadier, he became more intense about SSG ops in Siachen and Kashmir.
 

Suriya

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I agree with you but we did our duck shooting to the fullest, there were more than 3000 Indian soldiers, mostly sikhs as usual as Hindus don't face bullets easily. Our losses we're around 700
I learned from an Indian Muslim that Indian army also posted all the Muslims in Indian army at Kargil.
lol Indian army not only angry with Pakistan, they also become equally angry with their own Sikh and Muslim staff.



Kashmir is The End of India army.
If Nawaz Sharif had not lost it to Bill Clinton. There would have been no Indian army today!
You take it own BS too seriously .

Indian casualties are around 600 .

Majority of the martyrs were Hindus .

Most of the gallantry award winners are Hindus including the Highest one , Paramvir Charka were own by two hindu men and one them posthumously .
 

Aasimkhan

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I was there so I have seen with my own eyes, Since I am the first witness account I can tell you your casualties were more than 3000. Its upto you to trust or not.
We are also confirmed that your army will never glorify neither Muslims, nor Sikhs nor any other non-Hindu community so obviously most of the medals will go to Hindus. Since I was sitting on tiger hill and killed many with my own G3 I can assure you that most of the dead were Sikhs.

You take it own BS too seriously .

Indian casualties are around 600 .

Majority of the martyrs were Hindus .

Most of the gallantry award winners are Hindus including the Highest one , Paramvir Charka were own by two hindu men and one them posthumously .
And dont use word Martyr, there is no concept of martyrdom in your religion. You have borrowed ideas from Islam.

You take it own BS too seriously .

Indian casualties are around 600 .

Majority of the martyrs were Hindus .

Most of the gallantry award winners are Hindus including the Highest one , Paramvir Charka were own by two hindu men and one them posthumously .
How can a secular talk of martyrdom? You can use the word dead for your persons.
You take it own BS too seriously .

Indian casualties are around 600 .

Majority of the martyrs were Hindus .

Most of the gallantry award winners are Hindus including the Highest one , Paramvir Charka were own by two hindu men and one them posthumously .
 

Suriya

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I was there so I have seen with my own eyes, Since I am the first witness account I can tell you your casualties were more than 3000. Its upto you to trust or not.
We are also confirmed that your army will never glorify neither Muslims, nor Sikhs nor any other non-Hindu community so obviously most of the medals will go to Hindus. Since I was sitting on tiger hill and killed many with my own G3 I can assure you that most of the dead were Sikhs.


And dont use word Martyr, there is no concept of martyrdom in your religion. You have borrowed ideas from Islam.
India is proper democracy and you cant hide casualty figures or defense minister will lose his job .

Everything goes to parliament committee of defence and Opposition member will roast the govt if the hide numbers .

And u sitting in ur room or ever kargil height have no access know about Indian casualty figures .

PS: Don't be an authority of Hindu dhram when u know shit about it .
 

Corona

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A Muslim in Hindustan is degraded and humiliated, he is forced to become an Uncle Tom and abandon Islamic heroes like Ghaznavi or Qasim, and instead worship the enemies of Islam like the Maratha's, Gujara-Pratihara's or Hindu Rajputs. He is forced to abandon his Perso-Arabic alphabet and cannot sacrifice cows on Eid, both of which are integral to a Muslim's identity. His locale will be a poor one, because Hindu's will never dare give Muslims sufficient funds. He will have his laws made for him by Mushrik's with no regard for Islam, e.g the recent banning of triple Talaq and now polygamy might face the same treatment as well. He will be lynched, and nobody will mourn his death because he is viewed as lower than a Dalit. He will be underrepresented in all major institutions, because why should a Muslim be allowed to have any major authority? If a Muslim in Hindustan wants to get anywhere, he has to sacrifice his religion like that Murtad Mr Kalam.

A Muslim is far better off in Pakistan or Bangladesh than in Hindustan.
  • A Muslim in India is Indian first and Muslim second, just like how a Hindu in India is Indian first and Hindu second, or any other religion. The same can be said for Pakistan, otherwise you wouldn't need a visa to visit Saudi Arabia.
  • Old man Qasim or his Rajput counterparts were products of their times. We don't define heroes by their faith. Take it from someone who spent countless hours memorizing high school history, the Islamic personalities were neither glorified nor vilified.
  • He is not forced to abandon any language. We are a diverse people and pretty much every state has its own language. Another one is hardly a cause for concern. But yes importance will always be given to Hindi and English due to convenience and need for a common language. We don't want to end up like Pakistan, fragmented over language disputes.
  • You don't need to sacrifice a cow specifically. An animal has to be sacrificed, a third given to family, friends and the poor each for the sacrificial part of Eid. Don't forget the original sacrifice was a goat after the boy was saved.
  • India has a lot of poor people, and yes historically some communities were marginalized. All of that was abandoned, banned and made criminally punishable when the constitution was written up. It's a slow progress, but we're making progress.
  • Yes the triple talaq was banned. So was SATI. Any religious practice that tends to harm others, of the same faith or different faith, will be banned for the sake of the greater good.
  • Muslims underrepresented? Yes that must be why a Muslim was one of the most popular presidents of India, ever. We have Muslims in most major political parties, along with exclusive Muslim political parties.
You might call Kalam as someone who abandoned his religion, but if your definition of a Muslim is "someone who will unconditionally hate India", then yes, we don't want them here in India and that goes for every religion.
 

Aasimkhan

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India is proper democracy and you cant hide casualty figures or defense minister will lose his job .

Everything goes to parliament committee of defence and Opposition member will roast the govt if the hide numbers .

And u sitting in ur room or ever kargil height have no access know about Indian casualty figures .

PS: Don't be an authority of Hindu dhram when u know shit about it .
I am no authority on hindu dharam, but I know word Matyr is not applicable on a secular country.
And we all know what kind of a democracy India is, Do you know your SO_CALLED_DEMOCRACY was not even told the price of Rafael deal, how can they reveal the casualty numbers ?
For your knowledge i am quoting Times of India:
"NEW DELHI: The government has for the past several weeks maintained it cannot disclose the financial break-up of the Rs 59,000 crore (7.87 billion Euro) contract for 36 Rafale fighters due to a secrecy pact with France, but it had disclosed the cost per aircraft not long after the deal was signed in September 2016. To a specific question on the cost per aircraft in the deal in Rajya Sabha on Monday, defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman in a written reply said, “As per ‘Article-10’ of the Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) between Government of India and Government of France on the purchase of Rafale aircraft, the protection of the classified information and material exchanged under IGA is governed by the provisions of the Security Agreement signed between the two nations in 2008.”"

U say you
  • A Muslim in India is Indian first and Muslim second, just like how a Hindu in India is Indian first and Hindu second, or any other religion. The same can be said for Pakistan, otherwise you wouldn't need a visa to visit Saudi Arabia.
  • Old man Qasim or his Rajput counterparts were products of their times. We don't define heroes by their faith. Take it from someone who spent countless hours memorizing high school history, the Islamic personalities were neither glorified nor vilified.
  • He is not forced to abandon any language. We are a diverse people and pretty much every state has its own language. Another one is hardly a cause for concern. But yes importance will always be given to Hindi and English due to convenience and need for a common language. We don't want to end up like Pakistan, fragmented over language disputes.
  • You don't need to sacrifice a cow specifically. An animal has to be sacrificed, a third given to family, friends and the poor each for the sacrificial part of Eid. Don't forget the original sacrifice was a goat after the boy was saved.
  • India has a lot of poor people, and yes historically some communities were marginalized. All of that was abandoned, banned and made criminally punishable when the constitution was written up. It's a slow progress, but we're making progress.
  • Yes the triple talaq was banned. So was SATI. Any religious practice that tends to harm others, of the same faith or different faith, will be banned for the sake of the greater good.
  • Muslims underrepresented? Yes that must be why a Muslim was one of the most popular presidents of India, ever. We have Muslims in most major political parties, along with exclusive Muslim political parties.
You might call Kalam as someone who abandoned his religion, but if your definition of a Muslim is "someone who will unconditionally hate India", then yes, we don't want them here in India and that goes for every religion.
You are a bunch of Muslim/Sikh/Dalit murderers, we will not judge you on what you say, we will judge you on what you do.
 

Amalek

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2. Yes - "Hindu kush" is blood of Hindus or some such. The range is not even in our country. So in all likelihood refers to the killing of the ancestors of present day Pakistan. Feel free to celebrate their deaths or mourn them. Again, it's your choice.
HinduKush does not mean blood of Hindus. There was an ancient empire in the Indus valley, known as the Kushan Empire. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushan_Empire

The HinduKush mountain range marked the Kushan empire's border. So, it is called HinduKush mountains.

Read the history of last 5000 years, everytime u have been attacked from west, everytime u have been destroyed, everytime westerns have benefited, do you know why the mountain range of Hindu Kush got it's name?
Everytime India was attacked from the West, the point of entry was present day Pakistan. Your ancestors were so weak that they couldn't defend themselves. Everytime an invader attacked India, it was your lands that were ravaged and pillaged. It is a shame you worship your invaders as heroes. Your entire generations have been brainwashed into doing that. We Muslims in India are under no such illusions.
 

Taimur Khurram

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  • A Muslim in India is Indian first and Muslim second, just like how a Hindu in India is Indian first and Hindu second, or any other religion. The same can be said for Pakistan, otherwise you wouldn't need a visa to visit Saudi Arabia.
  • Old man Qasim or his Rajput counterparts were products of their times. We don't define heroes by their faith. Take it from someone who spent countless hours memorizing high school history, the Islamic personalities were neither glorified nor vilified.
  • He is not forced to abandon any language. We are a diverse people and pretty much every state has its own language. Another one is hardly a cause for concern. But yes importance will always be given to Hindi and English due to convenience and need for a common language. We don't want to end up like Pakistan, fragmented over language disputes.
  • You don't need to sacrifice a cow specifically. An animal has to be sacrificed, a third given to family, friends and the poor each for the sacrificial part of Eid. Don't forget the original sacrifice was a goat after the boy was saved.
  • India has a lot of poor people, and yes historically some communities were marginalized. All of that was abandoned, banned and made criminally punishable when the constitution was written up. It's a slow progress, but we're making progress.
  • Yes the triple talaq was banned. So was SATI. Any religious practice that tends to harm others, of the same faith or different faith, will be banned for the sake of the greater good.
  • Muslims underrepresented? Yes that must be why a Muslim was one of the most popular presidents of India, ever. We have Muslims in most major political parties, along with exclusive Muslim political parties.
You might call Kalam as someone who abandoned his religion, but if your definition of a Muslim is "someone who will unconditionally hate India", then yes, we don't want them here in India and that goes for every religion.
1. Anyone who is not Muslim first is not Muslim, simple as. The Quran and Hadees are very clear about this (I can bring up evidence later if you wish). Every single practicing Muslim, no matter what nationality, regards himself as Muslim first. Ask a religious Muslim if he values his country or his religion more, he will not say country unless he is either lying or simply not a religious Muslim. Saudi Arabia is irrelevant to this discussion, since being Saudi is also a nationality, not a religion.

2. If that's how you feel, fine. I am a proud Muslim before all else and therefore people like Qasim are my heroes where as I spit on the graves of those terrible creatures that acted against Islam and Muslims, this is how Muslims should view these Islamic conquerors.

3. Exactly, he has to write using Devangari rather than a Perso-Arabic script. His culture is literally being robbed from him. Pakistan doesn't have any language disputes, we all agree that Urdu and English are the national and formal languages whilst anything else is for provincial/personal use only. And I don't see why you are talking about fragmentation when you guys view Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan as lost land. You're also probably going to lose the rest Kashmir too.

4. We are well within our rights to sacrifice whatever we damn please, and should be able to do so without regarding your sensitivities (since you hardly ever extend the same courtesy).

5. Once you've actually completed your progress, then we talk.

6. Comparing Talaq to Sati is laughable, they are not even remotely similar.

7. Yes, Muslims are underrepresented, even the ones who are not practising:

https://www.aljazeera.com/archive/2003/12/200849155257613162.html

Kalam attempted to synthesise Hinduism with his religion, that's kufr. He aided in the development of weapons of mass destruction that would be primarily be targeted at other Muslims, again, that's kufr.

A practising Muslim doesn't have to hate Hindustan full stop, but he must value his religion over his nationality and any other identity he may hold, whilst also hating any haram things that his country does, whether he is Pakistani, Hindustani, Bangladeshi, Saudi Arabian, etc. It doesn't matter, the principle applies in all cases.

We Muslims in India are under no such illusions.
You're not Muslim, you cannot be Muslim whilst being a Secularist and hating Islamic heroes like Qasim or Ghaznavi.

You're a Kafir, just accept it and stop trying to be one of us.

Wsalaam, bro im not so sure - no army man will admit defeat, the fact that your friend said it was a silly endeavour is quite telling. The politicians in this case are telling the truth as they have nothing to hide here.
Everyone has an agenda when it comes to this issue, let's just look at the facts. We went, and we took Point 5353. We made gains, where as Hindustan made none (in fact, they had to rely on political pressure to force Pakistan to evict most of the 20% of Kargil it held).

We won, they lost. Simple as.

Read some history. The part of Kashmir you got/occupy is what you acquired by invading the free state of Jammu and Kashmir. Once India entered the fray, you lost territory and were pushed back. So you lost territory there.

You got 10% of your claim to Rann of Kutch through a British tribunal whose establishment and decision was accepted by both sides. Lol, you consider that some kind of victory? You claim was because the border was not demarcated. So by your own logic, India controls 90% of your claim.
Kashmir was never going to join Pakistan, get real. The ruler was clearly going to join Hindustan, hence why he was butchering Muslims long before Pakistan invaded (he wanted to cause a major demographic change). You lost land, we only gained it.

I don't care what we claimed, the fact is it was still originally yours but we took it. You lost 10% of Kutch that was yours, end of story.
 

Sugarcane

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Kargil wasn't the first blunder of our generals nor it's last one, list is forever increasing...
 

Amalek

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You're not Muslim, you cannot be Muslim whilst being a Secularist and hating Islamic heroes like Qasim or Ghaznavi.

You're a Kafir, just accept it and stop trying to be one of us.
You are a mushrik and a traitor to your motherland. You support invaders who killed, raped and pillaged your ancestors. I can never be one of you. I have principles and values.
 

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