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The Concept of Pakistan in the Vedas

Nasr

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Dr. Koenraad Elst; a belgian, the same country whose king (Leopold) created a "human zoo" by importing Congolese slaves from his African "colony" as an amusement for his subjects. One really has to be a total moron, to give any credibility to someone supposedly an expert on "Sinology" and "Indology" (you've gotta be kidding me with subjects such as those). For you leave yourself open to "opinions" of someone from the colonial beastiality that was (and still is) Europe and Britain, then don't cry wolf if you find yourself duped with a couple of long donkeys ears sticking out of your skull.

Aryans, really?! I find people who still talk of "Aryans" in the 21st century, to have somewhat a backward, "Jahil" mind.

For Islam dispensed with such ignorant ideological nonsense, allow the human mind to focus on subjects which bare meaningful study.

The absurdity of the "atypical white trash" should be a lesson for both white and non-white people to study and learn from. That all which sounds eloquent and sophisticated, is usually masking the stench of ignorance in all its glory.
 

Joe Shearer

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This is bullshit mixed with cow shit mixed with gau mutur to make a legendary vedic cocktail


You might as well take history lessons from Harry potter
I agree, but with reasons and historical perspective.

Your kind of jumping-up-and-down screaming abuse at the top of your voice post is really harmful to any kind of discussion.

If you have reasons, come out with them. If you simply want to express hostility, go watch a football match.
 

Joe Shearer

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Nice find as usual, will get back on this.

@Joe Shearer does this support my theory indirectly, about discrimination and racism in Indian society since time unknown. my tribe has always been in Punjab or Rajhistan, I will have to dig more to find whether west was once the stronghold of chandravanshis.
I would like to deconstruct this at leisure, piece by piece. Please bear with me, as I take a scalpel to it, rather than the axe that I long to use.
 

Joe Shearer

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I am a Brahmin, born to the family that once was Royal priest of Rajputana thus part of Royal family that also have members in priestly clan and temple management. and I can trace my lineage back to 11th century on my own with book that I have on my possession.

I have studied Rigveda and learned Mahabharata and Ramayana but did not find anything related to Pakistan in any of such books.

Can you give me source of your claims ?
You mean the source of Dr. Elst's claims. He is distinguished as being the ONLY academically qualified person in a long, long line of Hindutvavadi quacks, all of whom project their ownership of Sanskrit as their God-gifted right to opine on such things. They are usually engineers, more than one from the IT industry, or doctors, or bankers even (like Talageri and that other charlatan Sanjeev Sanyal, a funds specialist whom the present addle-pated government believes to have mystical insights into economics, and hence has made Chief Economic Advisor).

Historians, economists and sociologists, anthropologists, none of them are allowed entry into this august club (there is one failed economist, who did not qualify to teach in a regular university because he was unable to find a PhD thesis, so took to teaching management instead - like me - and finally made his mark with his own translation of the Mahabharata).

The OP is a poisonous piece, but must be dealt with. It has all the potential for setting off firefights, and the poster himself is a convinced right-winger.

More as we go along.
 
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21st Century Vampire

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does this support my theory indirectly, about discrimination and racism in Indian society since time unknown. my tribe has always been in Punjab or Rajhistan, I will have to dig more to find whether west was once the stronghold of chandravanshis.
It wasn't restricted to India...to be fair
 

ps3linux

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I would like to deconstruct this at leisure, piece by piece. Please bear with me, as I take a scalpel to it, rather than the axe that I long to use.
Sir maaf kardain bacha hai abhi.

It wasn't restricted to India...to be fair
Normally I don't respond to "quotes" unless the person is known to me but don't take it personally, Its a scholarly discussion going on between @Joe Shearer and I.

Find Joe's threads and you'll find my views on racism/discrimination, I am least bothered with racism in our west, south west or the scums-land called mideast, I am more interested in Indian history.
 

Joe Shearer

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The three most famous sculptures from Mohenjo Daro, on the Sindhu/Indus river, seem ill-chosen to represent the Pakistani publicity campaign “5000 years of Pakistan”. The “king-priest” apparently is an officiant of a stellar cult, and at any rate of a cult other than Islam, so according to the Pakistani state ideology, raison d’être for Pakistan’s very existence, he was a leading figure in a false religion belonging to Jahiliyya, the “age of ignorance”. Like the seated yogi surrounded by animals, “Śiva Paśupati”, he must be burning in hell now. As for the “dancing girl”, stark naked and in a defying pose, in today’s Pakistan she would be stoned to death right away.
This tendentious and utterly cheap propaganda piece needs to be dismissed straightaway, and we need to concentrate our attention on more relevant writing.
Somebody from Bharat Rakshak - going by its reputation - might have composed a better preliminary to the main arguments.
 

Joe Shearer

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The Northwest has always had a negative connotation in the Vedic tradition. Thus, R. Siddhantashastree (1978: History of the Pre-Kali-Yuga India, Delhi: Inter-India Publications, p.11) writes:

“The valley of the five tributaries of the Indus had always been held as an unholy region because of its occupation by a non-Aryan tribe antagonistic to the civilized Aryans until the time of Sambarana, (...) the king of Hastinapura belonging to the Lunar dynasty. He was the first Aryan to settle in the valley after driving away the aboriginal non-Aryans to a considerable distance.”

The latter sentence suggests a concession to the Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) by positing an antagonism between “Aryans” and “aboriginals”, contrary to the Puranic narrative revaluated by the same author, which has the Aryans come from inner India to this peripheral zone and then to Central Asia. This simply exemplifies the confusion regarding Aryan origins. Then again, perhaps it is the reader who is misled by this received wisdom while the author has a different scenario in mind: the Aryans as natives of a part of India, who came as conquerors to subdue the natives of other parts of India, notably the Northwest.



As Shrikant Talageri (The Rigveda, an Historical Analysis, and The Rigveda and the Avesta, the Final Analysis, Delhi: Aditya Prakashan 2000 c.q. 2008) has argued, the ancient Hindu suspicion towards the Northwest is a strong argument against the AIT. Knowing the Hindu veneration for origins, they should have treated the region of their provenance far more positively. Anyway, we note that Siddhantashastree situates this anti-Northwest attitude already in the pre-Vedic age, in the very beginning of Aryan history.
@ps3linux

I am writing for your attention exclusively; IF anyone wishes to address YOU and if YOU wish to include that reference in our discussion, I am open to it. I, however, will ignore any post addressed to me ON THIS SUBJECT ON THIS THREAD.

//We have a power-cut. I shall start once the power comes back on, and my poor eyes can cope with the lighting conditions inside once more.//
 

21st Century Vampire

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don't take it personally
Not taken nor you're obligated to reply to a quote you can keep discussing :)

Its a scholarly discussion going on between @Joe Shearer and I.
I am least bothered with racism in our west, south west or the scums-land called mideast, I am more interested in Indian history.
Norms and opinions changes with time and people tend to be unfair with history (unintentionally most of the time) , if you're not unfair then that's good but it's everyone's duty to clear misconceptions if they suspect someone potentially having a wrong idea in terms of knowledge for their own good, that's how the companions of old used to work after all, i will tag if there's anything infactual both from you or Joe and you both are free not to reply as simple as that, my points will be for other members to read so they don't potentially have any misconceptions of their own. Hope you have a fruitful discussion.

@LeGenD @waz hope my point was fair here in case of any further disagreements otherwise you're obviously free to correct me
 

21st Century Vampire

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As a side note to everyone, bring something factual instead of ad hominem (someone already did) and don't run away from counter points with ridiculous excuses (same person already planned it because he saw my counter points and realized his intelligence is too lower than mine to be able to deal with it) and try to respond to previous points to avoid getting corrected again...cheers :coffee:
 
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Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

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I have threads on this topic from a Pakistani persepective (without the blatant Islamophobia and lies of the OP).

I request all Pakistanis to look at the OPs in these threads, thanks.



Excerpt from the second link follows:

It may be of interest to mention here that so long as the Aryans stayed in Pakistan, they did not evolve that particular religion called 'Hinduism' with its caste system and other taboos. It was only when they crossed the Sutlej and settled in the Gangetic Valley that this abomninable system was evolved. "While settled in the Punjab the Aryans had not yet become Hindu.... The distinctive Brahmanical System appears to have been evolved after the Sutlej had been passed. To the east of Sutlej the Indo-Aryans were usually safe from foreign invasions and free to work out their own rule of life undisturbed. This also explains the absence of Hindu holy cities and temples in Pakistan." (Oxford history of India, By V.A. Smith, 3rd edition)

"The castes were hardened by the time the Aryans occupied the middle land i.e., the Gangetic Valley and distinguished themselves from their brethern in Sind and the Punjab who were despised by them for not observing the rules of caste .... and for their non-Brahmanical character." (Sindhi Culture, By U.T. Thakur)

"While the Aryans had by now expanded far into India, their old home in the Punjab, Sind and the north-west was practically forgotten. Later Vedic literature mentions it rarely, and then usually with disparagement and contempt, as an impure land where the Vedic sacrifices are not performed." (The Wonder that was India, By A.L. Bhasham)



For further information, please follow my links and learn more.

@Talwar e Pakistan @Verve @PAKISTANFOREVER @Musings @Morpheus @21st Century Vampire @masterchief_mirza @Dalit @Dual Wielder @313ghazi @Clutch @Itachi
 

masterchief_mirza

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I have threads on this topic from a Pakistani persepective (without the blatant Islamophobia and lies of the OP).

I request all Pakistanis to look at the OPs in these threads, thanks.



Excerpt from the second link follows:

It may be of interest to mention here that so long as the Aryans stayed in Pakistan, they did not evolve that particular religion called 'Hinduism' with its caste system and other taboos. It was only when they crossed the Sutlej and settled in the Gangetic Valley that this abomninable system was evolved. "While settled in the Punjab the Aryans had not yet become Hindu.... The distinctive Brahmanical System appears to have been evolved after the Sutlej had been passed. To the east of Sutlej the Indo-Aryans were usually safe from foreign invasions and free to work out their own rule of life undisturbed. This also explains the absence of Hindu holy cities and temples in Pakistan." (Oxford history of India, By V.A. Smith, 3rd edition)

"The castes were hardened by the time the Aryans occupied the middle land i.e., the Gangetic Valley and distinguished themselves from their brethern in Sind and the Punjab who were despised by them for not observing the rules of caste .... and for their non-Brahmanical character." (Sindhi Culture, By U.T. Thakur)

"While the Aryans had by now expanded far into India, their old home in the Punjab, Sind and the north-west was practically forgotten. Later Vedic literature mentions it rarely, and then usually with disparagement and contempt, as an impure land where the Vedic sacrifices are not performed." (The Wonder that was India, By A.L. Bhasham)



For further information, please follow my links and learn more.

@Talwar e Pakistan @Verve @PAKISTANFOREVER @Musings @Morpheus @21st Century Vampire @masterchief_mirza @Dalit @Dual Wielder @313ghazi @Clutch @Itachi
Thanks for the tag on this.

It's interesting though that some elements of brahminism did flow with the Aryan invaders from the banks of the Caspian who ultimately settled in the subcontinent. As I understand it, reverence for cows and other animals was possibly a unique Aryan trait. Some - though I would be pushed to locate the references presently - have mentioned that the Aryan invaders were accustomed to the ingestion of cow milk beyond infancy while progenitor ancient Indians ("aasi") may not even have had the physiology to do this. It's plausible that some - if not many - brahminist customs came with the Aryans. Your opinion on this?
 

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