TF-X Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircraft Projects

[GiantPanda]

How serious is this?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1569484910146224128

 

[Indos]

How serious is this?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1569484910146224128

Possible since CDR is not yet completed, detail design in my opinion is not yet started. Current prototype is not a flying prototype. Turkey release it soon IMO is due to Erdogan political target as in 2023 there will be Turkiye General election. This is why flight test is conducted in 2026 based on schedule.

When we see development of other airplane, like KF21, usually detail design spends around 1 year. KF21 basic design completion is in July 2018 and detail design started in July 2018 and completed in September 2019.

They are now IMO is still thinking about engine, detail design cannot be started before engine is already chosen. But could possibly that twitter is just hoax, as according to report American engine F110 have been bought for TFX prototypes.

Prototype will only be produced after CDR is completed, see the date and year

 

[Trango Towers]

Still not too late for Pakistan to join, but as a country that’s obsessed with consumerism, Pakistan will only start thinking of TFX once it’s up in the air and then Pakistan will make a simple transactional purchase.

Pakistanis cannot think.. reactionary losers

 

[merzifonlu]

How serious is this?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1569484910146224128

This source is notoriously unreliable! LOL

 

[Trango Towers]

impressive for TFX and Hurjet will be manufactured together

the think Turkey speed up the process after F35 program was cancelled

a blessing in disguise

Sanctions are the best things for nations that wish to develop

 

[Deino]

How serious is this?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1569484910146224128

Well ??? How much sense does it make to develop de fact three different variants of prototypes for three different engines?

And what engines?: the US type is the F110, in China only a WS-10/B/C could fit but I doubt, China would deliver it to a NATO country and Russia offers what? Surely not the Izd.30!

 

[aziqbal]

10 x TFX within 10 years is probably the shortest time to a 5th generation development

hope its a robust program and not rushed

wish the TX had started earlier, 10 years earlier and by now we would have it operational

 

[GiantPanda]

Well ??? How much sense does it make to develop de fact three different variants of prototypes for three different engines?

And what engines?: the US type is the F110, in China only a WS-10/B/C could fit but I doubt, China would deliver it to a NATO country and Russia offers what? Surely not the Izd.30!

Obviously it would make no sense to build three difference prototypes.

The issue is if the F110 is embargoed otherwise there would be no discussion.

If Turkey cannot get the F110 then where is the replacement? Of readily available heavy class engines, there are only those from Russia and China and most likely they would be AL-31 and WS-10 since both had been exported. The Turks will need something to power the prototypes -- again only if the F110 is held up by politics.

 

[Hold the door]

Our plan for MMU is probably as follows:

By 2028, 14 prototypes will be produced. 12 of them will fly with F110 engine, 2 of them will fly with domestic engine.

If the domestic engine is delayed, the first block planes produced until 2035 will fly with the F110 engine.

For the domestic engine, two roads will be followed at the same time. Both KALE-RR partnership and TEI will develop two different engines. Whichever is successful will be used. It would be best if both succeeded.

Russia, China and Ukraine are definitely not among our engine plans.

 

[GiantPanda]

Our plan for MMU is probably as follows:

By 2028, 14 prototypes will be produced. 12 of them will fly with F110 engine, 2 of them will fly with domestic engine.

If the domestic engine is delayed, the first block planes produced until 2035 will fly with the F110 engine.

For the domestic engine, two roads will be followed at the same time. Both KALE-RR partnership and TEI will develop two different engines. Whichever is successful will be used. It would be best if both succeeded.

Russia, China and Ukraine are definitely not among our engine plans.

So there is no risk of the F110 being held up and no backup plan is needed as suggested by those tweets?

 

[Indos]

Lets make comparison

Specifications​

F110-GE-129​

Data from General Electric,[21][22] American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME),[8] MTU[23]

General characteristics​

• Type: Afterburning turbofan
• Length: 181.9 in (462 cm)
• Diameter: 46.5 in (118 cm)
• Dry weight: 3,920 lb (1,780 kg)

-----------------------------------------------------

Specifications (WS-10A)​

Data from [28]

General characteristics​

• Type: Afterburning turbofan
• Length: 4.95 m (16.2 ft)
• Diameter: 1.16 m (3 ft 10 in)
• Dry weight: 1,704 kg (3,757 lb)

----------------------------------------------------------

Quite match I think, I mean the basic design that have been completed will likely be compatible with American and Chinese engine, but they need to be firm on which engine before starting detail design phase, some adjustment on basic design should be done as well if current design is based on F110 engine

-----------------------------------------------------------

AL-31F​

Data from Gordon,[27] Rosoboronexport,[28] United Engine Corporation,[29] UMPO,[30][31] Saylut[32]

General characteristics​

• Type: Two-shaft axial-flow afterburning turbofan
• Length: 4,945 mm (194.7 in)
• Diameter:
  • 905 mm (35.6 in) inlet;
  • 1,280 mm (50 in) maximum external
• Dry weight: 1,520 kg (3,350 lb)

 

[Hold the door]

So there is no risk of the F110 being held up and no backup plan is needed as suggested by those tweets?

When we use a Chinese or Russian engine, we become dependent again. There is no advantage in being dependent on China or Russia instead of the USA.

Our main goal is to produce engines without export restrictions.

 

[Indos]

When we use a Chinese or Russian engine, we become dependent again. There is no advantage in being dependent on China or Russia instead of the USA.

Our main goal is to produce engines without export restrictions.

The problem is that GE still dont show Turkish TFX as their possible F110 engine users, it is quite worrying

F110 New Engine | GE Aerospace

To meet the rapid fielding requirements of the U.S. Air Force, the advanced F-15EX Eagle II requires trusted and qualified engines now to keep up with evolving global mission needs. Only GE’s F110 has already been delivered to the U.S. Air Force, eliminating the risk of development time and...

www.geaerospace.com

While GE F414 engine shows KFX and Tejas MK2 already in their website, have Turkey made any contract yet with GE for F110 engine ? Can I see the link ?

F414 Engine | GE Aerospace

For more than 30 years, the U.S. Navy has depended on F414 power. Today, the F414 continues to deliver for the most demanding combat missions.

www.geaerospace.com

 

[Hold the door]

The problem is that GE still dont show Turkish TFX as their possible F110 engine users, it is quite worrying

F110 New Engine | GE Aerospace

To meet the rapid fielding requirements of the U.S. Air Force, the advanced F-15EX Eagle II requires trusted and qualified engines now to keep up with evolving global mission needs. Only GE’s F110 has already been delivered to the U.S. Air Force, eliminating the risk of development time and...

www.geaerospace.com

While GE F414 engine shows KFX and Tejas MK2 already in their website, have Turkey made any contract yet with GE for F110 engine ? Can I see the link ?

F414 Engine | GE Aerospace

For more than 30 years, the U.S. Navy has depended on F414 power. Today, the F414 continues to deliver for the most demanding combat missions.

www.geaerospace.com

The engines to be used in the prototypes have already been delivered.

MMU’nun ilk F110 motorları teslim edildi

Milli Muharip Uçak (MMU) projesinde kullanılacak olan F110 motorlarının ilk partisi teslim edildi. Milli Muharip Uçak (MMU) projesi kapsamında prototiplerde

www.defenceturk.net

There is no agreement for the engines to be used in the first blocks. Our goal is to use domestic engines in the first blocks.

 

[GiantPanda]

When we use a Chinese or Russian engine, we become dependent again. There is no advantage in being dependent on China or Russia instead of the USA.

Our main goal is to produce engines without export restrictions.

Of course but my question is geared towards just the engines for the prototypes and initial batch (if necessary) in case you don't get the F110.

Turkey's plan with the local engine wouldn't change whether the prototype's engine is the F110 or another foreign engine.

If the F110 is embargoed then what will Turkey do? Put off the prototype until the domestic engine is done?

Lets make comparison

Specifications​

F110-GE-129​

Data from General Electric,[21][22] American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME),[8] MTU[23]

General characteristics​

• Type: Afterburning turbofan
• Length: 181.9 in (462 cm)
• Diameter: 46.5 in (118 cm)
• Dry weight: 3,920 lb (1,780 kg)

-----------------------------------------------------

Specifications (WS-10A)​

Data from [28]

General characteristics​

• Type: Afterburning turbofan
• Length: 4.95 m (16.2 ft)
• Diameter: 1.16 m (3 ft 10 in)
• Dry weight: 1,704 kg (3,757 lb)

----------------------------------------------------------

Quite match I think, I mean the basic design that have been completed will likely be compatible with American and Chinese engine, but they need to be firm on which engine before starting detail design phase, some adjustment on basic design should be done as well if current design is based on F110 engine

-----------------------------------------------------------

AL-31F​

Data from Gordon,[27] Rosoboronexport,[28] United Engine Corporation,[29] UMPO,[30][31] Saylut[32]

General characteristics​

• Type: Two-shaft axial-flow afterburning turbofan
• Length: 4,945 mm (194.7 in)
• Diameter:
  • 905 mm (35.6 in) inlet;
  • 1,280 mm (50 in) maximum external
• Dry weight: 1,520 kg (3,350 lb)

They are the same class engines so they will be roughly the same size and weight. Most fighters are designed around either heavy or medium turbofan classes. Turkey went for the heavy instead of the medium (F404/414/RD33/WS-13) class in the TFX so you can pretty much guess which available engines it can theoretically use.