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TF-X Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircraft Projects

Indos

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3 D Experience is also used by PT RAI to develop R80 since 2014


 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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Deino

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Via "Combat Master" (Secret Project Forum):

"According to unconfirmed information that I obtained from our sources Turkey (TR Motor Power Systems) will soon sign a contract with Ivchenko Progress from Ukraine for cooperation in the development of a 35.000lb class turbofan engine (dubbed TF-141) to power TF-X aircraft."

"The MMU/TF-X Block-0, Block-I (2029) and Block-II (2032) aircraft will be powered by General Electric’s F110 Turbofan Family (probably F110- GE-129E version due to twin-engine configuration), and starting from Block-III (2035) the aircraft will gain true 5th Generation capabilities with indigenous 35.000lb class turbofan engines featuring stealthy exhaust nozzles for low-observability."

- www.defenceturkey.com
"The TurAF will gain Initial Operational Capability (IOC) with Block-I MMU/TF-X in 2031. According to TUSAŞ, deliveries of the first batch of 20 MMU/TF-X will be completed in 2034."

"On February 14, 2021 TR Motor Power Systems secured a contract from TUSAŞ for the design, development and manufacture (with technical support from Ivchenko Progress from Ukraine) of the Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) and Air Turbine Start System (ATSS) to be installed on MMU/TF-X aircraft."

- www.defenceturkey.com

1634751831089.png


But still I'm MOST sceptical and the Ukrainian way with a company that has de facto no experience in modern afterburners high-thrust turbofan engines, which was almost up for sale to China and now has an uncertain future is IMO a partner that only brings additional uncertainty. Therefore I rate the reason for this way can only be than none of the other major players in aeroengine business was willing to provide their technology, not even at any cost. You simply don‘t sell your crown-jewellery for a few $$.

I know some won't like this, but but this decision is only yet another reason to see it my way.

Anyway, all the best and time will tell.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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Via "Combat Master" (Secret Project Forum):






View attachment 786481

But still I'm MOST sceptical and the Ukrainian way with a company that has de facto no experience in modern afterburners high-thrust turbofan engines, which was almost up for sale to China and now has an uncertain future is IMO a partner that only brings additional uncertainty. Therefore I rate the reason for this way can only be than none of the other major players in aeroengine business was willing to provide their technology, not even at any cost. You simply don‘t sell your crown-jewellery for a few $$.

I know some won't like this, but but this decision is only yet another reason to see it my way.

Anyway, all the best and time will tell.
If this works, then remember that the idea to work with Ukraine on new engines came from this forum. @JamD
 

Indos

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If this works, then remember that the idea to work with Ukraine on new engines came from this forum. @JamD
Not only that, I have been for years advocating TFX to use F 110 instead of using their new engine in this thread. Their new engine development should be just used as secondary option, and I have been advocating them to focus on jet engine development for their cruise missile first and then go to power their future UCAV. Step by step

Their cruise missile is still using foreign engine
 

aliaselin

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Via "Combat Master" (Secret Project Forum):






View attachment 786481

But still I'm MOST sceptical and the Ukrainian way with a company that has de facto no experience in modern afterburners high-thrust turbofan engines, which was almost up for sale to China and now has an uncertain future is IMO a partner that only brings additional uncertainty. Therefore I rate the reason for this way can only be than none of the other major players in aeroengine business was willing to provide their technology, not even at any cost. You simply don‘t sell your crown-jewellery for a few $$.

I know some won't like this, but but this decision is only yet another reason to see it my way.

Anyway, all the best and time will tell.
Ukraine does not even finish developing AI-322F. I heard about the story that they would develop this engine(called AI-222-25F at that time) when I was a boy
By the way, Ivchenko Progress did not have any tracking record of developing any after-burn engine and any low by-pass engine in history, and the fanboys here did not know it as they have little knowledge about engine.
 
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SgtGungHo

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Via "Combat Master" (Secret Project Forum):






View attachment 786481

But still I'm MOST sceptical and the Ukrainian way with a company that has de facto no experience in modern afterburners high-thrust turbofan engines, which was almost up for sale to China and now has an uncertain future is IMO a partner that only brings additional uncertainty. Therefore I rate the reason for this way can only be than none of the other major players in aeroengine business was willing to provide their technology, not even at any cost. You simply don‘t sell your crown-jewellery for a few $$.

I know some won't like this, but but this decision is only yet another reason to see it my way.

Anyway, all the best and time will tell.
"The MMU/TF-X Block-0, Block-I (2029) and Block-II (2032) aircraft will be powered by General Electric’s F110 Turbofan Family (probably F110- GE-129E version due to twin-engine configuration), and starting from Block-III (2035) the aircraft will gain true 5th Generation capabilities with indigenous 35.000lb class turbofan engines featuring stealthy exhaust nozzles for low-observability."

"...the planned RCS value for the MMU/TF-X is -10 to -20 dBsm (0.1m2 to 0.01m2, Low Observability..."

The plan itself is still ridiculous as Turkey is throwing money at the Ukainian company that has little to no experience in developing a modern 5th gen fighter jet engine with an afterburner, but the interesting bit here is that Turkey believes the TF-X could "gain true 5th Generation capabilities" with this indigenous engine starting from the Block-III (2035). Meanwhile the MMU/TF-X Block-0, Block-I (2029) and Block-II (2032) will be 4.5th gen fighter jets or at least won't have true 5th Generation capabilities as Turkey claims.

This means Turkey expects to turn the 4.5hth gen fighter jet (~2032) into a 5th gen fighter (2035) within 3 years. How is that even possible?

Are Block-I (2029) and Block-II(2032) planned to have an internal weapon bay? How about other characters of the US 5th gen fighter jets?
If they don't, then how could they achieve their target RSC value? Even the relatively relaxed target of 0.1m2 to 0.01m2 sounds too ambitious if they decide to go this route.

I reserve my judgement of this project as I want to see how Turkey fares with Hurjet first. The advanced trainer aircraft is definitely happening and sounds more realistic than this lunatic TF-X project, but I want to see if the US decides to approve the sale of GE F404 engine to Turkey for Hurjet despite of sanctions. If the US does approve such sale, it might imply that Turkey could get GE F110 for TF-X and even if the country doesn't end up getting a 5th gen fighter, it might at least end up with a huge fighter jet with two GE F110 engines as a result of TF-X project.
 
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Deino

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...

I reserve my judgement of this project as I want to see how Turkey fares with Hurjet first. The advanced trainer aircraft is definitely happening and sounds more realistic than this lunatic TF-X project, but I want to see if the US decides to approve the sale of GE F404 engine to Turkey for Hurjet despite of sanctions. If the US does approve such sale, it might imply that Turkey could get GE F110 for TF-X and even if the country doesn't end up getting a 5th gen fighter, it might at least end up with a huge fighter jet with two GE F110 engines as a result of TF-X project.
I fully agree with your assessment, but I think the F404 engines are indeed confirmed.
 

merzifonlu

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I think there is a misunderstanding. Turkey agreed with the Ukrainians not for the engine itself, but for two add-ons of the engine. First add-on that will generate the electrical energy and second add-on will start the engine.

The difficulties in developing the engine's especially hot zone still remain!

So why did Turkey agree with Ukraine for these add-ons? There is a very simple reason. We don't want to spend money and time developing them.
 

Deino

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I think there is a misunderstanding. Turkey agreed with the Ukrainians not for the engine itself, but for two add-ons of the engine. First add-on that will generate the electrical energy and second add-on will start the engine.

The difficulties in developing the engine's especially hot zone still remain!

So why did Turkey agree with Ukraine for these add-ons? There is a very simple reason. We don't want to spend money and time developing them.

Thanks a lot, since this explanation is a reasonable one ... any such claims, Progress could develop such an engine within a few with only enough money provides is a joke.
 

merzifonlu

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Thanks a lot, since this explanation is a reasonable one ... any such claims, Progress could develop such an engine within a few with only enough money provides is a joke.
I agree with you. I think "The National Turbofan Engine Development Project" itself will be a joke if we can't find a revolutionary innovation in engine design. ;)

Because we do not have time and our economic situation is not suitable for it. A world class engine is required in a very short time. This is actually an impossible mission.

This means Turkey expects to turn the 4.5hth gen fighter jet (~2032) into a 5th gen fighter (2035) within 3 years. How is that even possible?
Believe or not this is very possible for Turkey. Because our software capabilities and our experience such as sensor fusion and advanced artificial intelligence required for 5th generation fighter have already matured due to the drone operations we have done.

The stealth fuselage, radars, sensors, DRCIM, decoys, weapons and most importantly loyal wingmans (Göksungur&MIUS-A supersonic and stealth drones) is currently ready or under development. And do we plan for TF-X fighter to have an internal weapons bay? Yes, of course we are planning.

In summary, TF-X fighter will be built from the very beginning with an stealth fuselage. However, it will not have some sensors, some software capabilities and planned national turbofan engine required for the 5th generation. Therefore, we expect the transition from the 4.5 generation to the 5th generation to be completed in 3 years.

The main bottleneck is in the national turbofan engine.
 
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merzifonlu

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Now that the bottleneck in the 35.000 lbs class and robust national turbofan engine is so obvious, what can Turkey do?

IMO, the lowest possibility is the development of a robust national turbofan engine suitable for 5th generation fighters by 2035.

Perhaps a bit more realistic option would be to use foreign engines (from China, from Russia or from US) suitable for 5th generation fighters. This option is also very unlikely in my opinion.

Another option would be to use the old F110 engines throughout the entire project and completely abandon true 5th generation features. I think Turkey will never consider this option. But it won't be because of the F110 engine. :)

Because in the case the US congress will do a lot of whimsy even if F110 engines are old technology. And we are tired with the bigoted senators in the US Congress. Sooo tired. Even the senators who support us do this for the bribes they receive through the lobby companies, not because they think we are right! They are corrupt to the core and these are people who don't like us Turks.

As a last resort, it may be considered to completely cancel the TF-X project and build the entire air force structure on drones. I think we're going to go down this road eventually. Because we may not be able to develop robust turbofan engine suitable for 5th generation fighters that can give 35,000 lbs of thrust until 2035, but we can develop 10,000 lbs class robust engines suitable for stealth drones.
 
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luciferdd

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Now that the bottleneck in the 35.000 lbs class and robust national turbofan engine is so obvious, what can Turkey do?

IMO, the lowest possibility is the development of a robust national turbofan engine suitable for 5th generation fighters by 2035.

Perhaps a bit more realistic option would be to use foreign engines (China, Russia or US) suitable for 5th generation fighters. This option is also very unlikely in my opinion.

Another option would be to use the old F110 engines throughout the entire project and completely abandon true 5th generation features. I think Turkey will never consider this option. But it won't be because of the F110 engine. :)

Because the US congress will do a lot of whimsy even if F110 engines are old technology. And we are tired with the bigoted senators in the US Congress. Sooo tired. Even the senators who support us do this for the bribes they receive through the lobby companies, not because they think we are right! They are corrupt to the core and these are people who don't like us Turks.

As a last resort, it may be considered to completely cancel the TF-X project and build the entire air force structure on drones. I think we're going to go down this road eventually. Because we may not be able to develop robust turbofan engine suitable for 5th generation fighters that can give 35,000 lbs of thrust until 2035, but we can develop 10.000 lbs class robust engines suitable for stealth drones.
Purchasing Type30 engines from Russia is a possible and good option for project TF-X.And other techs Turkey can ask for help from EU such as manufacturing Integral titanium alloy fuselage frames etc.In a word, as long as you have enough money, the problem is no longer a problem.
 

Deino

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Purchasing Type30 engines from Russia is a possible and good option for project TF-X.And other techs Turkey can ask for help from EU such as manufacturing Integral titanium alloy fuselage frames etc.In a word, as long as you have enough money, the problem is no longer a problem.

IMO it is NOT possible ... the Russians will IMO never sell only their best engine to power a different competing fighter project
 

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