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TF-X Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircraft Projects

dr.knowhow

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Now that the CDR completed, I think some of manufacturing footage of the first prototype will be leaked to the press very soon. An important milestone for Turkish aviation.
Even when nothing's leaked, it was announced that the Hürjet with engine installed will be rolled out this year. If no leaks, then bigger the delight when the full aircraft is revealed.
 

SgtGungHo

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"İlk kez SavunmaSanayiST.com tarafından öne sürülen bu bilgi, General Electric kaynakları tarafından da doğrulandı. HÜRJET’in prototip uçaklarında ve yerli motor programına göre ilk seri üretim uçaklarında, GE404 Turbojet Motoru’nun kullanılması bekleniyor."

SavunmaSanayiST.com reports that the supply contract of F404 for Hurjet is allegedly confirmed by General Electric sources, but the website didn't reveal who were those GE sources. So far nothing of such deal is mentioned on GE Aviation website. No news from the US government of issing such an export license, either. Very intriguing. If Turkey is able to obtain the engines, it may imply that Biden administration has tacitly lifted the arms sanction on Turkey and the country may proceed to export their attack helicopters with LHTEC engine in the future.
 

RadarGudumluMuhimmat

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"İlk kez SavunmaSanayiST.com tarafından öne sürülen bu bilgi, General Electric kaynakları tarafından da doğrulandı. HÜRJET’in prototip uçaklarında ve yerli motor programına göre ilk seri üretim uçaklarında, GE404 Turbojet Motoru’nun kullanılması bekleniyor."

SavunmaSanayiST.com reports that the supply contract of F404 for Hurjet is allegedly confirmed by General Electric sources, but the website didn't reveal who were those GE sources. So far nothing of such deal is mentioned on GE Aviation website. No news from the US government of issing such an export license, either. Very intriguing. If Turkey is able to obtain the engines, it may imply that Biden administration has tacitly lifted the arms sanction on Turkey and the country may proceed to export their attack helicopters with LHTEC engine in the future.

How do you know we can't get LHTEC engines
 

T-SaGe

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According to this presentation it seems that Hurjet program showing as one of the company's goals in the GE's investor meetings.


Turkey is one of the most important F-16 operators around the world. GE(US) engines are used not only in the air force combatant fleet, but also in cargo, airborne, utulity, tanker, land force's aircrafts and even some maritime aircrafts of naval forces. Outside military structures, Turkish Airlines is one of the worldwide users of Usa aero engines in civil aviation. Every year, dozens of engine sets travel to and from the USA. In addition to existing maintenance and logistics activities, TEI T-700-701D turboshaft engine continues to be under-licance-produce in Turkey within T-70 program. LHTEC engine sets also continues to come to Turkey within the scope of the T129 program. According to GE's Turkey operations and If we consider the TAI-GE partnership on TEI Jv: There is huge business experience that has produced thousands of different parts in 39 different engine types and having millions of hours of engineering work which spanning tens of years. Currently, Module Production, Engine Assembly and Test (AIT), Engine Design and Product Development activities continue in many product groups. Other than this, approximately 500 engineers at GE's R&D center in Gebze continue to participate in GE's worldwide projects.

I don't know whether GE engines will be used in Hurjet or not. But most of defense industry enthusiasts really do not know the extent CAATSA sanctions which Turkey subjected, or what its content what has been implemented until today. Moreover they don't feel the need to searc this either, even if they express their opinion like an expert.
 
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SgtGungHo

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How do you know we can't get LHTEC engines

Because it was reported by the media that Pakistan is still waiting for export clearance of LHTEC by the US government. If you have any news confirming that LHTEC engines getting a greenlight from the United States government, please share your sources.

According to this presentation it seems that Hurjet program showing as one of the company's goals in the GE's investor meetings.


Turkey is one of the most important F-16 operators around the world. GE(US) engines are used not only in the air force combatant fleet, but also in cargo, airborne, utulity, tanker, land force's aircrafts and even some maritime aircrafts of naval forces. Outside military structures, Turkish Airlines is one of the worldwide users of Usa aero engines in civil aviation. Every year, dozens of engine sets travel to and from the USA. In addition to existing maintenance and logistics activities, TEI T-700-701D turboshaft engine continues to be under-licance-produce in Turkey within T-70 program. LHTEC engine sets also continues to come to Turkey within the scope of the T129 program. According to GE's Turkey operations and If we consider the TAI-GE partnership on TEI Jv: There is huge business experience that has produced thousands of different parts in 39 different engine types and having millions of hours of engineering work which spanning tens of years. Currently, Module Production, Engine Assembly and Test (AIT), Engine Design and Product Development activities continue in many product groups. Other than this, approximately 500 engineers at GE's R&D center in Gebze continue to participate in GE's worldwide projects.

I don't know whether GE engines will be used in Hurjet or not. But most of defense industry enthusiasts really do not know the extent CAATSA sanctions which Turkey subjected, or what its content what has been implemented until today. Moreover they don't feel the need to searc this either, even if they express their opinion like an expert.
Very good. Thank you. This is exactly I have been asking instead of a series of fantasies & unfounded claims that I was getting before. This is the first time I have ever seen that GE confirming that they are interested in supplying F404 for Hurjet, yet it is still unclear whether if the US government agrees with the deal not only because of sanctions, but also the fact that the US government was already refusing to issue an export license for LHTEC engines to Turkey so they could sell their attack helicopter to Pakistan.

Another interesting thing is that F404 for Hurjet is mentioned, but not F110 for TF-X in the presentation document. Very intriguing.
 

KapitaanAli

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Another interesting thing is that F404 for Hurjet is mentioned, but not F110 for TF-X in the presentation document. Very intriguing.
The list is not comprehensive. GE website lists F414-INS6 as in development for Tejas Mk2, but is omitted here. Perhaps because this is 100% confirmed and thus no campaign is required.

But by this logic, Hurjet F404 is not confirmed and TF-X F110 is either 100% confirmed or 0% confirmed. I think the sensible thing is to avoid reading too much into this presentation.
 

T-SaGe

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Because it was reported by the media that Pakistan is still waiting for export clearance of LHTEC by the US government. If you have any news confirming that LHTEC engines getting a greenlight from the United States government, please share your sources.



Very good. Thank you. This is exactly I have been asking instead of a series of fantasies & unfounded claims that I was getting before. This is the first time I have ever seen that GE confirming that they are interested in supplying F404 for Hurjet, yet it is still unclear whether if the US government agrees with the deal not only because of sanctions, but also the fact that the US government was already refusing to issue an export license for LHTEC engines to Turkey so they could sell their attack helicopter to Pakistan.
Although US officials previously gave guarantees that They will not act as export barrier for international tenders, began to act opposite direction after TAI started to won tenders. If you ask me, this situation is actually a direct mistake of the Turkish defense industry presidency. Because this is not the first time they have fallen into this trap. Previously, the export of FIRTINA self-propelled howitzer was also blocked by the German government, which blocked MTU engine export license. Since we did not learn our lesson there, we reached point that we are striving for a domestic engine solution even for Altay main battle tanks.

Still, there is not any problem in LHTEC engines procurement for TAF's Atak program. Pakistan's unable to provide LHTEC engine issue is not only about Turkey, more about Pakistan-US relations. If I remember correctly, the USA was offered its own helicopter to Pakistan in the same tender. However, Pakistan-USA relations have been experiencing many problems in recent years, even if different dimensions comparing to Us-Turkey relations.

Another interesting thing is that F404 for Hurjet is mentioned, but not F110 for TF-X in the presentation document. Very intriguing.
Because F110 will not be main engine of MMU(TFX). Joint production or technical support studies continue for a new generation engine. One of the reason for choosing F110 in prototypes could be both Turkish aviation industry and the air maintenance and supply command have decades of engineering experience with these engines, idk. For example, the APU production project for MMU was given to a local company recently. Working with an engine that you have engineering libraries and experience can have many advantages. Mostly likely, F110 engines will be used in the prototypes to be produced first only for faster schedule goal, but the main engine sets will be a different and new generation jets.
 
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SgtGungHo

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The list is not comprehensive. GE website lists F414-INS6 as in development for Tejas Mk2, but is omitted here. Perhaps because this is 100% confirmed and thus no campaign is required.

But by this logic, Hurjet F404 is not confirmed and TF-X F110 is either 100% confirmed or 0% confirmed. I think the sensible thing is to avoid reading too much into this presentation.
I think it is listed as "F414: India Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft" rather than Tejas Mk.2, but I could be wrong and I am happy to learn new things.

Still, there is not any problem in LHTEC engines procurement for TAF's Atak program. Pakistan's unable to provide LHTEC engine issue is not only about Turkey, more about Pakistan-US relations. If I remember correctly, the USA was offered its own helicopter to Pakistan in the same tender. However, Pakistan-USA relations have been experiencing many problems in recent years, even if different dimensions comparing to Us-Turkey relations.
Because an export license of LHTEC engines for the Turkish army is already issued and the US government would just let the company to fullfil her orders just like other US powerpack in Turksih armed vehicles and other equipments. No, I believe it is mostly because of Turkey, not Pakistan. In fact, the US government is not issuing a certificate for export to Turkey over the helicopter deal with Philippines as well. The government hasn't issued a new export license to Turkey for LHTEC engines to be sold along with their helicopters to countries like Pakistan & Philippines.

This is a bit dated (2019), but I think it is worth reading. It includes a story why the CIA, the DIA and other branches of US intelligence community were pissed off when Fatih Ozmen, a Turkish American co-CEO of Sierra Nevada was arrested & held several hours by Turkish authorities at Istanbul Airport and why the US government basically "unofficially" started sanctioning Turkey back in 2019, which prompted Turkey to launch a lobbying campaign in the D.C.


Because F110 will not be main engine of MMU(TFX)
It doesn't matter if it would be used for a prototype only like Rafale. F110 needs an approval from both GE Aviation and the US government regardless. The US government may refuse to greenlight the project, but GE Aviation should mention such deal for F110 as the engine is alledgedly already selected some time ago.
 
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KapitaanAli

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I think it is listed as "F414: India Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft" rather than Tejas Mk.2, but I could be wrong and I am happy to learn new things.
AMCA is the fifth gen fighter. First batch is F414 powered and second larger batch is indigenous engine with foreign assistance, similar to how Turkey wants to proceed.

Mk2 is enlarged LCA with canards, all of them powered by F414.
 

Deino

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"
Speaking at a ceremony organized at TUSAŞ facilities to celebrate the delivery of first T129B2 ATAK Helicopter to the Security General Directorate (Turkish Police) on February 26, 2021 TUSAŞ President & CEO Temel KOTİL disclosed that HÜRJET prototype will perform its maiden flight in December 2022, after the completion of the detailed design, prototype production and ground testing phases. While talking to TRT Radio 1 at the National and Domestic Program on December 4, 2020 TUSAŞ President & CEO KOTİL had previously underlined that the first HÜRJET prototype would execute its maiden flight on March 18, 2023, when the 108th anniversary of the Çanakkale Naval Victory will be celebrated.

HÜRJET is being developed by TUSAŞ under a Protocol signed between TUSAŞ, the SSB and the TurAF on July 2, 2018. The initial studies for the “Advanced Jet Trainer & Light Attack Aircraft (HÜRJET) Project” were started in July 2017 and the Project was officially launched on 14 August 2017, as a company funded project (which was funded from TUSAŞ’ own resources) after receiving a green light to go ahead from the TUSAŞ Board.

The Conceptual Design Phase (CDP) of the HÜRJET Project was completed in April 2018, according to original schedule the Preliminary Design Review (PDR) Phase activities should have been completed in February 2019 (To+18 months), Critical Design Review (CDR) Phase should have been completed in August 2020 (To+36 months) and the Test Readiness Review (TRR) Phase should have been completed in August 2021 (To+48 months). However due to the internal and external reasons this schedule could not be kept. The PDR Phase could only be completed in July 2020. Within the scope of the PDR Phase, TUSAŞ engineers have carried out several wind tunnel tests including Static Wind Tunnel Tests, Air Intake Wind Tunnel Test and Low Speed Wind Tunnel Test with HÜRJET’s 1/10 scaled model to confirm the existing configuration. The HÜRJET model that underwent the initial wind tunnel tests was configured in accordance with GE’s F404-GE-102 turbofan engine.

Following the signing of a Letter of Intent (LoI) between TUSAŞ and Eurojet Turbo GmbH for the delivery of EJ200 turbofan engines the design of the HÜRJET was modified (such as, the air intakes were revised and enlarged to accommodate the more powerful EJ200 engine) and further wind tunnel tests have been carried out to confirm revisions on the aircraft overall design. So currently HÜRJET has two separate designs in accordance with two different engine options. According to our sources the HÜRJET will be powered by the F404-GE-102 engine from GE. Under the project two prototypes will be manufactured. According to project schedule the 1st HÜRJET prototype would be rolled-out in December 2021 and to perform its maiden flight in February 2022 (To+60 months), the 2nd HÜRJET prototype, on the other hand, is planned to perform its maiden flight in August 2022 (To+64 months) but this schedule seems to could not be accomplished.

....."

 

SgtGungHo

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It seems like they are trying to reinvent the wheel with Hurjet. There are already a few advanced trainers or fighter jets with F404. In fact, Boeing T-7A is already in production with the company saying that they will offer different variants including an attacker. Australia and others will line up for T-7A to replace their existing fleets of advanced trainers. M-346 even though it is not equipped with F404 is a competitive platform as well. It would have been more interesting if Turkey had chose EJ200 over F404 (though I still have my doubts over the US government of approving an export of F404).

It would be interesting to watch the development of Hurjet project - would it become a dud that only Turkey (and probably Azerbaijan) uses for the sake of the advanced trainer being "Turkish" or a new Saab Gripen A/B which delievers the high performance per cost along with the capability of advanced trainer.
 
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