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TF-X Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircraft Projects

IblinI

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Defense sector? That is a term which you can't conclude in one sentence.
From cyber to space, from air force, navy to ground force.
I personally don't believed Turkey is better than a nation that is currently building an EMALS aircraft carrier, but that's just my opinion. :-)
 
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dr.knowhow

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One very enthusiastic Turkish member has set up a new thread to continue our "discussion" of opinions over there. I think this might help us get this thread - if it ever was - back to constructive information sharing.


Also I've got quite a lot to say about comparing Turkish and Chinese military technologies but I would suggest that this thread is getting wildly off topic already so it would be appropriate to refrain. Maybe one of the members who are so enthusiastic on talking about these matter should set up a new thread.
 

dr.knowhow

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Talking about information sharing (and no talking about engines;)),I've recently seen TF-X model that is probably near something of a PDR model that has an IRST on top of its radome with a small aerodynamic (and possibly radar reflection) shielding on the bottom.

Although where I saw this model was a thread of another forum where they were discussing about Su-57's stealth capabilities, which also has a big IRST up on the nose, I think it's an interesting topic we could discuss about on this thread as well.

Maybe this is something the Turks are planning to redesign in the further batches of the aircraft? It is already official that the first iteration of the TF-X would not be a full-blown 5th gen fighter jet but a design capable to be upgraded to 5th gen. Nothing is known about how many of these first iteration would be produced but I would suggest that these first iteration would not be a mere prototype.

It's really hard to tell what would be the difference between the first and following iterations of TF-X would be as a lot of information just don't exist on public. We know projects like BÜRFIS and BEOS exist but it seems to be that no one has ever told what the ROC or concrete project structure of these projects are like.

Also unlike what some people suggest, some of the detailed information regarding western fighter jets from the US, Europe, Japan and Korea are able to be found on the web if you have time and will to search for it.

Even some detailed information regarding F-35's technologies such as it's data fusion engine could be found online, be it a book, research paper or transcript of something that came out in some sort of symposium or conference. Same applies for Rafale or Eurofighter, F-2 and KF-X. Talking about KF-X, even the details about its AESA hardware or RAM and RAS performace could be found online from credible sources, mostly research papers of ADD, KAI or affiliate universities. All you need to do is get through language barriers. To an extent, Chinese fighter jet technologies, such as their stealth related researches concerning J-20 development; eg: how canards affect J-20's stealth capabilities, could be found online as well.

I have seen none of these for the TF-X. When even the Chinese publish a lot of their critical techs online and people like us could access it, I would guess that there are Turkish papers somewhere in the internet as well. It's either that none of the Turks are interested enough to dig into research database to look up for a research paper which is often time consuming and if you're not a member of a university, costly. It could also mean that these information are only shared in Turkish speaking defence forums.


I would like to ask some Turkish members which are the biggest Turkish research data base/digital library or academic journals. I've found one of TÜBITAK but it seems to be that it only contains very limited number of researches regarding defense. (https://journals.tubitak.gov.tr/index.htm) If us foreign members could search for and find some related research papers regarding TF-X it might help containing the spread of misinformation, if there are any.
 
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Titanium100

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Engine development is the most difficult field in military industry they its takes decades to develop and design mature engines how can you develop decent engines within 4-5 year they (USA) wont pass you critical tech related to the engine development, you can make decent fuselage though because your experience with f35 project and how can you think that you more advance aerospace industry than China military industrial complexes needs huge amount of investment

How can you explain
Engine development was a real issue from the 60s until 2010s but times has changed and alot of people are mostly stuck in the past but don't realize how quick time is moving and how things that were not possible just 4 years ago is possible today. from 2020s onwards to 2050s the speed of world growth will be double of the amount we made in the last century. Things that took 20yrs to build only takes today 3-4 years or even less. Times have changed but alot of people are not aware of this until mid 2030s.

The end quality product is much better then Chinese products. People can agree to disagree all they want and they are welcome to that but we share different opinions on the matter. I look at things pragmatically and people buy into brand such as ''Made in'' but that is not quality in itself. Quality comes from if you build things with the sole mindset of having an edge
 
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Engine development was a real issue from the 60s until 2010s but times has changed and alot of people are mostly stuck in the past but don't realize how quick time is moving and how things that were not possible just 4 years ago is possible today. from 2020s onwards to 2050s the speed of world growth will be double of the amount we made in the last century. Things that took 20yrs to build only takes today 3-4 years or even less. Times have changed but alot of people are not aware of this until mid 2030s.

The end quality product is much better then Chinese products. People can agree to disagree all they want and they are welcome to that but we share different opinions on the matter. I look at things pragmatically and people buy into brand such as ''Made in'' but that is not quality in itself. Quality comes from if you build things with the sole mindset of having an edge
So all in all you're saying you can build F110 ( high thrust class) engine in your first time good luck you for this stupid thinking and licence manufacturing is not building for something like from scratch its basically assembling the engine and manufacturer is providing you parts you just it assembling at home
 
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SgtGungHo

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I am not interested to go through all your disputes thoroughly because all I am seeing is the usual TF-X engine yada yada.
For you information, It was about the Hurjet engine, not the TF-X engine as TAI has reportedly opted for employing a GE F404 instead of Eurojet EJ200 for the company's Hurjet project. Since the US government won't approve an export request for GE F404 from Turkey given the current relationship between USA and Turkey at the moment, I was curious how would Turkey procure the engine for their new trainer. I gave up after facing a series of unrealistic claims & flat-out fantasies (GE of secretly transferring technologies & IP for F404 to Turkey without reporting the matter to the US government) from our esteemed members.

I came back because there was a news of Hurjet of making a maiden flight in Q4 2022 (Calendar year, of course) popped up on my newsfeed and hoped for more credilable information about the engine of TAI Hurjet, but sadly nothing could be found.

Either ways, the country has to start manufacturing a prototype of Hurjet very soon if Turks are planning to fly a flightworthy jet within 2 years and everyone will soon figure it out whether if Turkey has actually managed to procure a GE F404 from the US.
 
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RadarGudumluMuhimmat

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For you information, It was about the Hurjet engine, not the TF-X engine as TAI has reportedly opted for employing a GE F404 instead of Eurojet EJ200 for the company's Hurjet project. Since the US government won't approve an export request for GE F404 from Turkey given the current relationship between USA and Turkey at the moment, I was curious how would Turkey procure the engine for their new trainer. I gave up after facing a series of unrealistic claims & flat-out fantasies (GE of secretly transferring technologies & IP for F404 to Turkey without reporting the matter to the US government) from our esteemed members.

I came back because there was a news of Hurjet of making a maiden flight in Q4 2022 (Calendar year, of course) popped up on my newsfeed and hoped for more credilable information about the engine of TAI Hurjet, but sadly nothing could be found.

Either ways, the country has to start manufacturing a prototype of Hurjet very soon if Turks are planning to fly a flightworthy jet within 2 years and everyone will soon figure it out whether if Turkey has actually managed to procure a GE F404 from the US.

You answer me first, you said that every technology given to me will be through permission from Congress. With the statement of TEI's CEO, many manufacturing engineering technologies (including the combustion chamber) were acquired from GE. Come on show me the official documents of these.
 

SgtGungHo

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You answer me first, you said that every technology given to me will be through permission from Congress. With the statement of TEI's CEO, many manufacturing engineering technologies (including the combustion chamber) were acquired from GE. Come on show me the official documents of these.
Not every technology, but sensitive & critical technologies such as (military-grade) gas turbine engine are restricted, especially when the projects (both F110 and F404) were funded by the US govenrment. That's why Turkey could not procure a LHTEC engine when the US congress refuses to issue an export license in the first place. TEI has received whatever critical ToT over (military-grade) gas turbine engines from GE only because the US government gave a green light just like they did with Isreal, Japan and etc.

Commerce Control List (incl. Aero gas turbine engines)

How GE transfered aeroengine techs to Japan by getting an approval from various US governmental departments & agencies

I understand you are not familar with the matters and having a difficulty to accept those well documented facts & precedents. As I said I gave up on convincing you otherwise over your fantasies of GE trasnfering F404 technologies without seeking the US government's permission, so I won't go any further and repeat the same charade.

Turkey said they will fly Hurjet by Q4 2022 and that's that for now. I wish we had had more credilble infomration from US suppliers & government confirming this matter over F404, but it seems like you or any member could provide more detail & information at the moment. That's a shame.

As it was suggested above, I will participate in the thread in the future
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/opinions-on-mmu-huerjet-fighter-trainer-projects.699394/
 
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dr.knowhow

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For you information, It was about the Hurjet engine, not the TF-X engine as TAI has reportedly opted for employing a GE F404 instead of Eurojet EJ200 for the company's Hurjet project. Since the US government won't approve an export request for GE F404 from Turkey given the current relationship between USA and Turkey at the moment, I was curious how would Turkey procure the engine for their new trainer. I gave up after facing a series of unrealistic claims & flat-out fantasies (GE of secretly transferring technologies & IP for F404 to Turkey without reporting the matter to the US government) from our esteemed members.

I came back because there was a news of Hurjet of making a maiden flight in Q4 2022 (Calendar year, of course) popped up on my newsfeed and hoped for more credilable information about the engine of TAI Hurjet, but sadly nothing could be found.

Either ways, the country has to start manufacturing a prototype of Hurjet very soon if Turks are planning to fly a flightworthy jet within 2 years and everyone will soon figure it out whether if Turkey has actually managed to procure a GE F404 from the US.
Well they've recently announced that they will roll-out a prototype with an engine within this year so it's not gonna take long for us to know how things turn out. What I could say though, is that I mostly share the same doubts concerning the supply of those engines.

Not every technology, but sensitive & critical technologies such as (military-grade) gas turbine engine is restricted, especially when the project (both F110 and F404) were funded by the US govenrment. That's why Turkey could not procure a LHTEC engine when the US congress refuses to issue an export license in the first place. TEI has received whatever critical ToT over (military-grade) gas turbine engines from GE only because the US government gave a green light just like they did with Isreal, Japan and etc.

Commerce Control List (incl. Aero gas turbine engines)

How GE transfered aeroengine techs to Japan by getting an approval from various US governmental departments & agencies

I understand you are not familar with the matters and having a difficulty to accept those well documented facts & precedents. As I said I gave up on convincing you oterhwise over your fantasies of GE trasnfering F404 technologies without seeking the US government's permission, so I won't go any further and repeat the same charade.

Turkey said they will fly Hurjet by Q4 2022 and that's that for now. I wish we had had more credilble infomration from US suppliers & government confirming this matter over F404, but it seems like you or any member could provide more detail & information at the moment. That's a shame.

As it was suggested above, I will participate in the thread in the future
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/opinions-on-mmu-huerjet-fighter-trainer-projects.699394/
Thank you for presenting a nice read. Should read through as it looks to be very comprehensive about something very interesting.

Back to the topic, we've gotta remember that those cases where the core tech was transferred to Japan, it was under some special circumstances and offsets, technology going from Japan to US for one. So overall Turkey's case isn't even comparable to the Japanese one. It's even more far-fetched.

Also, during that whole FSX program and F110 tech transfer thing, majority of the congress stood against the transfer of technology which the then president Bush forced through with his authorities as a president. Japan was and is a key ally in the pacific. It's awfully quiet rn in comparison, which bugs me to say the least, considering the current diplomatic relations between the US and Turkey.

Some people don't seem to understand that getting the license for production is one thing, and using it for other intentions/applications other than what originally signed for is another.


Please; discussions, opinions, and all other unnecessery stuff goes to here : https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/opinions-on-mmu-huerjet-fighter-trainer-projects.699394/

This thread is only about updates, info, pictures, graphics etc.
You really need to pm one of the pdf moderators or admins and check out if there is a dedicated mod on Turkish section in the first place. If not, why not ask for that permission maybe? Otherwise if there is one, we should get to them and ask for that thread to be pinned. Else no one's going to notice its existence.
 

dr.knowhow

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So according to Mr. Demir, he mentions "one or two (different) readily available engines to be used for the interim", before the Turkish developed engine is ready. This to me sounds like he's talking about an engine other than the F110.

Now considering what we have heard so far from various official Turkish figures, it seems to me that this "1 of the or maybe 2 of the engines" that he is talking about is firstly the F110, which has been licensed to Turkey for local production of parts and assembly for F-16 and another engine from a different country, probably Russia. I guess they are planning to use the F110 for the prototype and are going to apply for the US approval of using those F110s for what they are intending, which is not the application on F-16.

If the US doesn't approve, they could go ask this unknown second party, once again probably Russia, for an engine. In case if its really Russia, they seem to be willing to sell Su-35s and Su-57s, so maybe they are also willing to sell their engines if not the jets.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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So according to Mr. Demir, he mentions "one or two (different) readily available engines to be used for the interim", before the Turkish developed engine is ready. This to me sounds like he's talking about an engine other than the F110.

Now considering what we have heard so far from various official Turkish figures, it seems to me that this "1 of the or maybe 2 of the engines" that he is talking about is firstly the F110, which has been licensed to Turkey for local production of parts and assembly for F-16 and another engine from a different country, probably Russia. I guess they are planning to use the F110 for the prototype and are going to apply for the US approval of using those F110s for what they are intending, which is not the application on F-16.

If the US doesn't approve, they could go ask this unknown second party, once again probably Russia, for an engine. In case if its really Russia, they seem to be willing to sell Su-35s and Su-57s, so maybe they are also willing to sell their engines if not the jets.
@SQ8 @JamD this could be interesting.
 

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