• Tuesday, July 16, 2019

Tejas Light Combat Aircraft: The not so Indian fighter

Discussion in 'Indian Defence Forum' started by undercover JIX, Jul 1, 2019.

  1. undercover JIX

    undercover JIX SENIOR MEMBER

    Messages:
    4,573
    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2008
    Ratings:
    +0 / 3,522 / -0
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    Pakistan
    if that makes you feel happy, we are good with joint venture.
    kiya yaar aik samoosa bhi nahi India mae bana saktay...100%
     
  2. Arulmozhi Varman

    Arulmozhi Varman FULL MEMBER

    Messages:
    460
    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2018
    Ratings:
    +0 / 289 / -8
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    Canada

    Just tell us how many industries have JF17 ecosystem has helped pawned in Pakistan? I can list 10's of private sectors who are designing and manufacturing from frames, motors, mission computer hardware, LCD's along with lots of testing companies for LCA and N-LCA.

    Dont fly anymore. Cos Indian coders work for Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier and also Embraer.

    Boeing has already clarified MCAS was not designed by Indian companies. Indian companies are mostly involved in testing of various subsystems etc. MCAS is the heart of the plane. I would be an idiot if I give the technology for such concept to an third party who can inturn can sell the same to any other company by rebadging some codes.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 2
  3. PurAzamBaHadaf

    PurAzamBaHadaf FULL MEMBER

    Messages:
    258
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2019
    Ratings:
    +0 / 427 / -0
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    MCAS wasn't? The software clearly was designed by Indians companies. Show me where Boeing denied this?
     
  4. Keysersoze

    Keysersoze SENIOR MEMBER

    Messages:
    4,411
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2006
    Ratings:
    +1 / 976 / -0
    Sigh! Here we go again...

    Ok let's start with a few points. You have argued your point and obviously believe it so I will endeavour to be polite and explain why you are wrong.

    You start with mentioning the Dhruv and talk as if it is a resounding success. I beg to differ. The helicopter has only one thing going for it and that is it's price point. The last time I heard anything significant about it was when the Ecuadorians said they'd like their money back. And there have been quite a few cra

    Never start with something like the Dhruv for your argument. The Dhruv has a bad reputation and in the world of defence procurement reputation goes a long way.

    Ecuador To Sell Three Remaining HAL Dhruv Helicopters



    Ecuador will sell the three remaining three Dhruv utility helicopters it bought from India’s Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) it purchased between 2009 and 2012.

    Ecuador's Defence Minister Ricardo Patino announced the decision on October 20, IHS Jane's Defence Weekly reported.

    Ecuador had bought seven Dhruv from HAL after a hard competition from Elbit, Eurocopter and Kazan for $50.7mn. Ecuador lost four helicopters in crashes and the Ecuadorian government took a decision to ground the rest of the choppers in October last year. It also ended the contract with HAL unilaterally.

    Two of the helicopters that crashed are attributed to mechanical problems and getting components for the choppers from India has proved to be problematic.

    The other two crashes are linked to pilot errors. One of these helicopters was assigned to transport the Ecuadorian President. He was not on board when the helicopter crashed.

    HAL had provided ground support for the choppers in Ecuador. The officials had said that the two choppers that crashed allegedly because of the mechanical defects went down only after the ground support period with Ecuador had ended.
    Since 2002, 14 military and 2 civil Indian Dhruv helicopters have been involved in accidents, out of which 11 occurred in India and 5 abroad.
    Out of 16 accidents, 12 occurred due to human error & environmental factors and the remaining 4 occurred due to technical reasons, Minister of State for Defence Rao Inderjit Singh said in the parliament in March this year.
    As per notice issued by Ecuador Government, ‘non-compliance of the seller of some of the obligations contracted by virtue of the present contract’ and ‘value of the fines exceeding the amount of guarantee of faithful compliance of the contract’ have been cited as the reasons.

    Ecuadorian Defence Minister had been previously quoted by AP as saying that getting the spare parts from India was difficult. However, HAL had insisted that it provided all the spare parts on time and was not provided with any investigative reports that said mechanical failure was the reason behind crashes.


    As for the rest you, are using the old staple of "It has created a infrastructure" and that this is the start of big bright future. As noted above reputation goes a long way.

    The project has in essence failed. Why? the Plane was supposed to have start production in 1998 to replace mig 21's has it completed this task?----no, you haven't even completed the first 40 ordered aircraft and had to complete a MK1A to cover the faults that aren't fixed.(Lets not even go down the MK2 business lol)

    Is it indigenous?---No despite many dopey Indian posters blaring on about "JF17 is only Chinese with green paint" the Tejas is 70% foreign

    Have you ordered the MK1A's yet?---No automatically adding another 3-4 years before you get new planes for an airforce short of aircraft.

    Has it started replacing the squadron shortfall? ----no
    Is the original design chock full of successful Indian projects like the Kaveri engine, Indian Avionics---No
    Are the worlds Air forces all a buzz about the new exciting plane coming from India----No, No airforce wants an unfinished product let alone a product that isn't being ordered by your own airforce close to 40 years after the project started.
     
  5. Keysersoze

    Keysersoze SENIOR MEMBER

    Messages:
    4,411
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2006
    Ratings:
    +1 / 976 / -0
    You need to stop posting pictures as if they prove some point.....

    The Dhruv Ecuador business was being reported (With the resultant report by India being that they blamed Ecuador for a poor product)last year. The helicopter is still crashing with Indian pilots being blamed a lot instead of Ecuadorans. The Indian airforce is a captive market and doesn't have a choice really.
    More trouble for HAL as DGCA issues directive after incident

    DGCA red-flags Dhruv ALH banging noise, cockpit jerks



    The Director General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) has flagged "banging noises" and "erratic response of the engines" causing cockpit jerks and vibration in Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL)-made Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopters.

    The airworthiness directive for corrective action by pilots comes after "multiple occurrences of abnormal sound/series of banging noise and erratic response of TM 333-2B2 engines installed on ALH Dhruv Civil Helicopters with vibration and jerks in cockpit during flight".


    Dhruv comes in both civil and military versions.

    The directive said that if these problems occur in flight, the pilot are advised to fly below 80 knots speed and land as soon as practicable after checking all the engine parameters.

    If one engine is affected, the pilots are advised to shut it down and follow single engine landing procedures as soon as practicable.

    The HAL has produced around 250 Dhruv helicopters, the bulk of which are with the armed forces. The number of helicopters in civil operations is very low.

    An HAL spokesperson told IANS that this airworthiness directive was issued by the aircraft-maker itself through DGCA for the customers in January this year.


    As for the TEJAS mk1A or otherwise it is still a failure because it is not doing what it was created to do. It is not replacing any Mig21's. You haven't even completed the initial order of 40 and the first 20 or so have been nothing but test aircraft. You haven't even ORDERED the MK1A and it is 2019!!! its coming up to one aircraft for every year of this project.
     
  6. Water Car Engineer

    Water Car Engineer ELITE MEMBER

    Messages:
    12,856
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Ratings:
    +13 / 22,060 / -6
    Country:
    United States
    Location:
    India

    Those pictures do prove a point, that's it's operational in almost all environments, scenarios within India. You're banking on some old news of Dhruv mark 1 in Ecuador, India had no business exporting it then. India has moved on. The production is ahead of schedule, several marks are inducted, and a whole new private sector production plant is to come up. You didnt know even half of this info I just gave.

    Mark1A isnt ordered. So arent many things in the pipe line, before and after. HAL has already down selected 82 AESA, EWs ment for Mark1A. You still banking on it not being ordered? The private sector is full on with a program that's going to say at 40? Good one.

    I just told you TATAs, Reliance, Adanis, etc. The big huge private sector players have responded for assembly of the civ Dhruv variants. You dont even know any updated info of what you speak of. Civ Dhruv was always an after thought for HAL.
     
  7. undercover JIX

    undercover JIX SENIOR MEMBER

    Messages:
    4,573
    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2008
    Ratings:
    +0 / 3,522 / -0
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    Pakistan
    Gentlemen, there is a separate thread for Boeing saga,

    Please do not ignore Technological Marval and undermine its importance for the future Aerospace Industry, lets discuss Teja and how it can help in upcoming space wars...
     
  8. Keysersoze

    Keysersoze SENIOR MEMBER

    Messages:
    4,411
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2006
    Ratings:
    +1 / 976 / -0
    I don't care whether it is ordered or not. As far as I am concerned the Tejas, the Arjun, the Dhruv,The Kaveri are gifts that keep on giving. Thanks to the Tejas the IAF effectively lost the advantage it had through the mid90's on wards.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  9. Water Car Engineer

    Water Car Engineer ELITE MEMBER

    Messages:
    12,856
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Ratings:
    +13 / 22,060 / -6
    Country:
    United States
    Location:
    India
    What mid 90s? The 90s were a disaster. Matter a fact, a lot of the backed up orders that India has to do recent from arty to aircraft are due to the horrible policy making of the late 80s, 90s.
     
  10. PurAzamBaHadaf

    PurAzamBaHadaf FULL MEMBER

    Messages:
    258
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2019
    Ratings:
    +0 / 427 / -0
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    The source is Indian so does not hold any validity. Post an official tweet or statement posted by Boeing then talk.
     
  11. Dazzler

    Dazzler PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

    Messages:
    7,269
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2008
    Ratings:
    +17 / 15,311 / -0
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    United States
    IN has rejected Tejas.
     
  12. Water Car Engineer

    Water Car Engineer ELITE MEMBER

    Messages:
    12,856
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Ratings:
    +13 / 22,060 / -6
    Country:
    United States
    Location:
    India
    Still an on going program. Was revived by this the last MoD.
     
  13. My-Analogous

    My-Analogous SENIOR MEMBER

    Messages:
    6,441
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2009
    Ratings:
    +2 / 4,868 / -0
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    Saudi Arabia
    So now they throw way the line "Lightest plane on earth". Interesting but why?
     
  14. Wow

    Wow FULL MEMBER

    Messages:
    757
    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2019
    Ratings:
    +0 / 1,204 / -0
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    Pakistan
    Indians here doing better job defending the tejas then its own weapons systems :P
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  15. Keysersoze

    Keysersoze SENIOR MEMBER

    Messages:
    4,411
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2006
    Ratings:
    +1 / 976 / -0
    Good news! Another delay! They were looking at getting new jets in 5-6years but if they resurrect the Tejas that will add a few more years to IN plans...lol
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019