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T-129 Atak & Turkish Attack Helicopter Programs

T-SaGe

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Unprecedented in Turkish Aerospace’s history; the full-scale static test of Gökbey begins

5/21/2021 7:21:00 PM

Certification tests and development processes of the general-purpose helicopter Gökbey, developed by Turkish Aerospace with the aim of meeting the needs of the Turkish Armed Forces and other authorities for a general-purpose helicopter, continue successfully.

In the last statement made by Turkish Aerospace about Gökbey's testing process, the following was mentioned:
"Turkish Aerospace is to realize another world first with Full-Scale Static Testing (FSST), which enables the testing of the critical parts of indigenous systems before flying. It will be the first time for a Full-Scale Static Test to be performed in Turkey and in the biggest in Turkish Aerospace’s history in terms of volume with it performing it on the Gökbey helicopter.”

The aim is to begin mass producing Gökbey helicopters in 2021 and to deliver 3 Gökbeys to the Gendarmerie General Command. It is planned for the company to reach the capacity of producing 2 Gökbeys per month in 2022.

With Gökbey, Turkey will be one of the 6-7 countries in the world to design and manufacture helicopters entirely by itself.

GOKBEY:

It made its first flight on September 6th, 2018.

Developed by TEI, the TS1400 turboshaft engine, which will power Gökbey, was successfully tested on January 4th, 2019.
It made its first certification flight on June 29th, 2019.

Gökbey, which can fly at high altitudes and cruise at a speed of 300 kilometers in harsh climatic and geographical conditions, has a capacity of 12 passengers.


source - https://defensehere.com/eng/defense...ull-scale-static-test-of-gokbey-begins/142456
 

mjting01

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Hello everyone. Hope you are all safe and healthy.

Any sneak peeks or pictures in of the Philippine ATAK units in production?

Thank you!
 

mjting01

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Good day. May I ask if there could be any sneak peeks into the PH ATAKS to be delivered? like in the assembly line or something?
 

SgtGungHo

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Good day. May I ask if there could be any sneak peeks into the PH ATAKS to be delivered? like in the assembly line or something?
I am interested in this as well. Maxdefense Philippines (I am sure you know him) reports in September that it looks like TAI cannot deliever the Turkish-Italian attack helicopters (T-129) to DND & PAF within the promised timeframe (Sept to Oct of this year) and he also claims that his 'source' says that, to no one's surprise, it is due to the issue with LHTEC engine's export license from the US. Though I don't take Maxdefense's words as they are, I understand he is one of reputable and popular military bloggers in the Philippines. Even in the late October, Maxdefense claims that T129s "have failed to arrive". He is usually one of first non-media civilian who reports such news of military acquisition.

Another interesting bit is that the Philippines, after receiving assurance from TAI, has reportedly made a partial payment for the attack helicopters. I wonder if Pakistan is in the same situation.
 

mjting01

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I am interested in this as well. Maxdefense Philippines (I am sure you know him) reports in September that it looks like TAI cannot deliever the Turkish-Italian attack helicopters (T-129) to DND & PAF within the promised timeframe (Sept to Oct of this year) and he also claims that his 'source' says that, to no one's surprise, it is due to the issue with LHTEC engine's export license from the US. Though I don't take Maxdefense's words as they are, I understand he is one of reputable and popular military bloggers in the Philippines. Even in the late October, Maxdefense claims that T129s "have failed to arrive". He is usually one of first non-media civilian who reports such news of military acquisition.

Another interesting bit is that the Philippines, after receiving assurance from TAI, has reportedly made a partial payment for the attack helicopters. I wonder if Pakistan is in the same situation.
I have given my opinions as per MD is concerned, and for me, I would highly advise you to remove the "reputable" part of his reports. As based on his page, he frequently bashes anyone (including myself, even featuring my facebook picture which the post got taken down soon after) who is not USA biased, as he is.

He has been proven wrong time and time again with the T129, for the past 3 years already where he kept saying it was canceled when it was not. He has flipflopped on this issue, as well as on the multirole fighter acquisition, in which he has been debunked by our secretary of defense over and over again. I would highly advise that we not believe what he says for the most part.

He also was called out by our official Philippine Air Force, in which he wanted to spin some news on a landing mishap on one of our new A-29 super Tucanos, in which the PAF quickly circulated his fake news in that very evening.

Word is going that November is the new target arrival date for the new units, but given how delays in military procurement and deliveries are, on top of that the ongoing global pandemic, delays like these are not rally unnatural.

MD is just looking for an angle to "canceling the atak and going for murica choppers" whenever he can.

But back to my request, I hope that some pics of our units, even if they are in production line, start surfacing!
 

SgtGungHo

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I have given my opinions as per MD is concerned, and for me, I would highly advise you to remove the "reputable" part of his reports. As based on his page, he frequently bashes anyone (including myself, even featuring my facebook picture which the post got taken down soon after) who is not USA biased, as he is.

He has been proven wrong time and time again with the T129, for the past 3 years already where he kept saying it was canceled when it was not. He has flipflopped on this issue, as well as on the multirole fighter acquisition, in which he has been debunked by our secretary of defense over and over again. I would highly advise that we not believe what he says for the most part.

He also was called out by our official Philippine Air Force, in which he wanted to spin some news on a landing mishap on one of our new A-29 super Tucanos, in which the PAF quickly circulated his fake news in that very evening.

Word is going that November is the new target arrival date for the new units, but given how delays in military procurement and deliveries are, on top of that the ongoing global pandemic, delays like these are not rally unnatural.

MD is just looking for an angle to "canceling the atak and going for murica choppers" whenever he can.

But back to my request, I hope that some pics of our units, even if they are in production line, start surfacing!
I agree with you that MaxDefense's reports should be taken with a grain of salt, but he has also correctly reported Philippines defense news. It looks like MD is popular, not just beause of his political affiliation and bias, but his speculation based alleged sources from the industry and DND actually turn out to be true from time to time. For instance, he implied that the Philippines favoured Elbit system's ASCOD 2 for the light tank acqusition program and indeed the Philippines chose the Israel/Spanish/Austrian light tank.

For the T129, the Philippines government sure did have concerns over the re-expoert license of the attack helicopter's engine and the project seemed to be very much in doubt, if not cancelled in the past few years . It appeared that the Philippines government was still exploring US options in the last year even though they had reportedly signed the contract with TAI over T129. They only finally confirmed the order of T129 early this year when TAI assured the Philippines that the issue over the engine was resolved.

Now, you should agree that the delievery timeframe of Sept to Oct has almost lapsed, even though the promise was made by TAI. You may believe it is natural for a company of not honoring its contractual promise, but given their deteriorating relationship with the US and the fact that Pakistan is in the similar situation with the engine export license, it does raise the question if Turkey has actually successfully obtained the re-export license from the US as Maxdefense suggests.

However, I do hope the Philippines receive T129s by November as you claim and plus some form of compensation for late delivery from TAI as the country had already paid the money in advance for the attack helicopters to be delievered on time.
 
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mjting01

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I agree with you that MaxDefense's reports should be taken with a grain of salt, but he has also correctly reported Philippines defense news. It looks like MD is popular, not just beause of his political affiliation and bias, but his speculation based alleged sources from the industry and DND actually turn out to be true from time to time. For instance, he implied that the Philippines favoured Elbit system's ASCOD 2 for the light tank acqusition program and indeed the Philippines chose the Israel/Spanish/Austrian light tank.

For the T129, the Philippines government sure did have concerns over the re-expoert license of the attack helicopter's engine and the project seemed to be very much in doubt, if not cancelled in the past few years . It appeared that the Philippines government was still exploring US options in the last year even though they had reportedly signed the contract with TAI over T129. They only finally confirmed the order of T129 early this year when TAI assured the Philippines that the issue over the engine was resolved.

Now, you should agree that the delievery timeframe of Sept to Oct has almost lapsed, even though the promise was made by TAI. You may believe it is natural for a company of not honoring its contractual promise, but given their deteriorating relationship with the US and the fact that Pakistan is in the similar situation with the engine export license, it does raise the question if Turkey has actually successfully obtained the re-export license from the US as Maxdefense suggests.

However, I do hope the Philippines receive T129s by November as you claim and plus some form of compensation for late delivery from TAI as the country had already paid the money in advance for the attack helicopters to be delievered on time.

SGT, thank you so much for engaging me with this discussion. Actually, I was about to mention the ASCOD2 news as one of his good points, but having you know, run ins with him, alongside some people I know from inside our DND, as well as chatting with other people who know the same people inside, MD seems to be not viewed upon positively, even within our Armed Forces.

I have no issue with the engine problems fueling hesitancy. My problems is with MD declaring things with a tone of FINALITY in them that is generally, not good. BLOGGERS of all people cannot just willy nilly declare with finality that "project X is canceled etc etc in favor of project W" without the official channels from our DND mentioning the same. This is the very reason why the Ph air force immediately calls him out.

Yup, I perfectly understand the situation on teh delays. However, the geopolitical situations between PK and PH are quite different, with us having a not so shabby leverage with our VFA agreement. PK, I do not think has such leverage, and given that the USA seems to support or at the very least, slightly prefer india over PK certainly does not help.

Hope we get some free ammunition or even free additional unit(s) of atak for compensation. I also hope that we get the FAZ-2 b2 ones? I think all ATAK under construction are of that spec already.
 

SgtGungHo

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SGT, thank you so much for engaging me with this discussion. Actually, I was about to mention the ASCOD2 news as one of his good points, but having you know, run ins with him, alongside some people I know from inside our DND, as well as chatting with other people who know the same people inside, MD seems to be not viewed upon positively, even within our Armed Forces.

I have no issue with the engine problems fueling hesitancy. My problems is with MD declaring things with a tone of FINALITY in them that is generally, not good. BLOGGERS of all people cannot just willy nilly declare with finality that "project X is canceled etc etc in favor of project W" without the official channels from our DND mentioning the same. This is the very reason why the Ph air force immediately calls him out.

Yup, I perfectly understand the situation on teh delays. However, the geopolitical situations between PK and PH are quite different, with us having a not so shabby leverage with our VFA agreement. PK, I do not think has such leverage, and given that the USA seems to support or at the very least, slightly prefer india over PK certainly does not help.

Hope we get some free ammunition or even free additional unit(s) of atak for compensation. I also hope that we get the FAZ-2 b2 ones? I think all ATAK under construction are of that spec already.
And thank you for participating in the dicussion with me in a civil manner. I appreicate your input, @mjting01.

I understand where you are coming from as DND has a final say on who has won the contract and reserves a right to make such announcement, but even bloggers could observe the progress of the said project and Maxdefense correctly observed, along with the international media, that T129 procurement program of the Philippines was in doubt, if not canceled because of the concerns over the US-UK engine and the Philippines government looked indecisive as the country publicly conintued to explore US options. Posibility of the Philippines ordering attack helicopters other than T129 was still real in the last year and had DND & PAF been given more budget, I suspect they would have chosen American Attack helicopters.

I think you subsrcribe yourself to this narrative that the export license issue is more to do with the T129 attack helicopter purchasers rather than to do with the manufacturing country, Turkey. I reckon America is currently taking an issue with either parties. This is especially true since Turkey is under US sanctions at the moment and the Philippines government did demand an assurance over the engine re-export license from the Turkish side. Therefore, I think that the issue is also much to do with Turkey's bitter relationship with United States of America. In this sense, I believe the Philippines is in a similar position with Pakistan even though PH seemingly has a healthier relationship with the US than PK.

I believe Maxdefense once criticized the Philippines DND of not understanding the meaning of "risks", "risk reduction" and "risk mitigation" over the selection of T-129. Now, we have TAI of failing to deliever the attack helicopters on time and it seems like at least for now MD looks proven right on this matter. I really do hope TAI hands out some free stuffs such as UMTAS guided missiles to the Philippines as the country trusted their words and made payment in advance. However, if TAI or Turkey actually decides to compensate for late delivery or even cancellation of T-129 delivery, I reckon the Philippines should opt for turboprop-powered Turkish UAV with SAR and air-to-ship missiles.
 

mjting01

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And thank you for participating in the dicussion with me in a civil manner. I appreicate your input, @mjting01.

I understand where you are coming from as DND has a final say on who has won the contract and reserves a right to make such announcement, but even bloggers could observe the progress of the said project and Maxdefense correctly observed, along with the international media, that T129 procurement program of the Philippines was in doubt, if not canceled because of the concerns over the US-UK engine and the Philippines government looked indecisive as the country publicly conintued to explore US options. Posibility of the Philippines ordering attack helicopters other than T129 was still real in the last year and had DND & PAF been given more budget, I suspect they would have chosen American Attack helicopters.

I think you subsrcribe yourself to this narrative that the export license issue is more to do with the T129 attack helicopter purchasers rather than to do with the manufacturing country, Turkey. I reckon America is currently taking an issue with either parties. This is especially true since Turkey is under US sanctions at the moment and the Philippines government did demand an assurance over the engine re-export license from the Turkish side. Therefore, I think that the issue is also much to do with Turkey's bitter relationship with United States of America. In this sense, I believe the Philippines is in a similar position with Pakistan even though PH seemingly has a healthier relationship with the US than PK.

I believe Maxdefense once criticized the Philippines DND of not understanding the meaning of "risks", "risk reduction" and "risk mitigation" over the selection of T-129. Now, we have TAI of failing to deliever the attack helicopters on time and it seems like at least for now MD looks proven right on this matter. I really do hope TAI hands out some free stuffs such as UMTAS guided missiles to the Philippines as the country trusted their words and made payment in advance. However, if TAI or Turkey actually decides to compensate for late delivery or even cancellation of T-129 delivery, I reckon the Philippines should opt for turboprop-powered Turkish UAV with SAR and air-to-ship missiles.

Oh do not get me wrong I fully agree that Turkey is the predominant culprit here. However, it really takes two to tango, and the receiving country plays a factor as well. The mere fact that the ph got approved (albeit piecemeal amount of units) vs PK really shows the differences between the two.

Sorry, but MD has a bone to pick with the current prez, and I'm telling you right now, if a prez that is in the opposing end of the current one was in power, he would be singing praises of the person to high heaven-regardless if that hypothetical president did exactly everything the current admin has done. MD is partisan thru and thru-trust me on this one. MD is bound to be critical of any moves the current admin will do. But if the one in power was a liberal/democrat aligned one? Even if he or she got the shittiest of equipment, MD will defend it. Such is his modus, sadly. He is really not in it for the betterment of the AFP, just his own agenda. I know I sound like I really hate him, and I do, but you gotta trust me on this one.

Hopefully it's significantly more ammunition, plus one unit. or even two units and more ammo, plus faz-2 spec.

I sincerely believe that the ATAK is one of the better offers out there for the price, and that it is just overshadowed by the more popular USA or Russian offers.
 

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