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Support for Nato membership soars to 76% in Finland

SecularNationalist

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Why not? I mean Ukraine as Russia says is artificial country and needs to be wiped out. Shouldn't Finland be treated the same since it was also part of Russia and Russia can decided to take it back?
Good question.
There is a big difference between Ukraine and Finland.
Ukraine is the birthplace of Russia a Slavic nation. Go read their history. It all started in Kyiv. Russia is a big brother of Ukraine.
Ukraine was intact built by the Bolsheviks.
Secondly it wasn't until Ukraine wanted to join NATO ,Russia decided to invade Ukraine. Without NATO and cozying up with the west to undermine Russia in the region ,Ukraine can exist or else it will become part of Russia.
 

A.P. Richelieu

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Maybe. And is NATO the world police?
When the UNSC calls for all countries to make an effort, yes.

And yet mighty armies have been defeated by the Russians after they were beaten back badly.


Maybe that's what the defence companies and big money wanted in the West. A reason for countries to start arming again. There are a lot of interests at stake. The Americans and Western Europeans did a big mistake by supporting the Euromaidan and the ultra-nationalist governments that followed. Belarus,Ukraine,Georgia,Armenia,Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan,this is Russian turf. Imagine if Russians tried got Ireland in an alliance against the UK. If they supported and funded Catalonian riots.

The EU and Ukraine was negotiating a trade agreement when Russia started meddling, and made Yanukovich sign an agreement with Russian without discussing with anyone else. Possibly he was bribed. That was what caused the protests on the Maidan.
Ukraine was just about to start an impeachment process against Yanukovich when Russia meddled again and helped him escape to Russia with several billion dollars.
If Russia made themselves so attractive that Ireland preferred to be aligned with them, they are to be gratulated. That is course pure fantasies on your part.
Russia has nothing competitive to offer.

The French and the Germans wanted to find a diplomatic solution,but the Americans and the British kept insisting on war and sanctions.

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The West kept warning about war, and your kind kept making fun of such ”lies” until Russia started the war.
 

Foinikas

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If Russia made themselves so attractive that Ireland preferred to be aligned with them, they are to be gratulated. That is course pure fantasies on your part.
Russia has nothing competitive to offer.
Ex-Eastern Bloc countries and people are attracted by the money and glamour of the West. It's a natural outcome of decades of strict communist rule. Of course the Russians didn't help much by staying behind a lot of economic and industrial sectors.

The West kept warning about war, and your kind kept making fun of such ”lies” until Russia started the war.
What do you mean my kind? Zelensky was the one who didn't want believe it :P He called for a total mobilisation 3 days into the war.
 

A.P. Richelieu

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Good question.
There is a big difference between Ukraine and Finland.
Ukraine is the birthplace of Russia a Slavic nation. Go read their history. It all started in Kyiv. Russia is a big brother of Ukraine.
Ukraine was intact built by the Bolsheviks.
Secondly it wasn't until Ukraine wanted to join NATO ,Russia decided to invade Ukraine. Without NATO and cozying up with the west to undermine Russia in the region ,Ukraine can exist or else it will become part of Russia.
Ex-Eastern Bloc countries and people are attracted by the money and glamour of the West. It's a natural outcome of decades of strict communist rule. Of course the Russians didn't help much by staying behind a lot of economic and industrial sectors.


What do you mean my kind? Zelensky was the one who didn't want believe it :P He called for a total mobilisation 3 days into the war.
The kind that promotes Russias narrative on all occasions.
You choose to ignore the comment I just made that Russia was the first to meddle in Ukraine in 2014.
You also deleted that part when you commented on my post.
 

SecularNationalist

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The kind that promotes Russias narrative on all occasions.
You choose to ignore the comment I just made that Russia was the first to meddle in Ukraine in 2014.
You also deleted that part when you commented on my post.
No it was the US who first meddled in 2014 by replacing a pro Russia president of Ukraine with that scumbag poroshenko. It was always you ,who initiated first. You people are class 1 hypocrites. You dream of having influence in the whole world will never come true.
 

A.P. Richelieu

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No it was the US who first meddled in 2014 by replacing a pro Russia president of Ukraine with that scumbag poroshenko. It was always you ,who initiated first. You people are class 1 hypocrites. You dream of having influence in the whole world will never come true.

In 2014, Ukraine was negotiating with the EU about a trade agreement.
Putin made the corrupt Yanukovich sign an agreement way before that, against the intention of the Parliament, without asking anyone else.
That is what caused the demonstrations at Maidan and then the demonstrators were fired upon by, possibly but not proven, FSB. There were plenty of FSB agents in Kyiv at the time. Yanukovich soon realized that the Parliament was about to impeach him and he escaped with the help of FSB.
Yanukovich remained formally President until the end of his term, but the Ukrainan Parliament unanimously (amongst those present) elected an acting President since the President had chosen to make himself unable to do his job. That Western politicians, like John McCain publicly endorsed the demonstrators by their presence does not make it a coup.

The Ukrainan constitution allows for selecting an acting President when the President is unable to do his job for medical reason. It did not foresee a President that refused to do his job.
Yanukovich did not fight this in court, because he would have been arrested and impeached.
Still, that would have been the proper procedure.
Yanukovich term ended one year later in 2015.

So Russia started this, and has fueled this since 2014.
The main influence the West have, is by being a good example that people want to emulate.

With a score of 15 out of 100 on free and fair elections in the Democracy Index, Russia has no moral right to complain about Ukrainan elections.
 
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Oldman1

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Good question.
There is a big difference between Ukraine and Finland.
Ukraine is the birthplace of Russia a Slavic nation. Go read their history. It all started in Kyiv. Russia is a big brother of Ukraine.
Ukraine was intact built by the Bolsheviks.
Secondly it wasn't until Ukraine wanted to join NATO ,Russia decided to invade Ukraine. Without NATO and cozying up with the west to undermine Russia in the region ,Ukraine can exist or else it will become part of Russia.
Ukraine has been trying to join NATO since 2008. So why now? They have been refused and not even close to being admitted. You just saw Turkey willing to veto Sweden and Finland's membership and they have no conflicts.
 
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Foinikas

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The kind that promotes Russias narrative on all occasions.
You choose to ignore the comment I just made that Russia was the first to meddle in Ukraine in 2014.
You also deleted that part when you commented on my post.
Oh I didn't ignore it. I know about it.
Russians wanted Yanukovich who was traditionally pro-Russian. It makes sense that they want Ukraine under their sphere of influence. Haven't Americans removed or supported governments,based on their interests?

And no,I don't promote Russia's narrative on all occasion. On the contrary,Putin had disappointed and angered a lot Greeks by giving S-400s to the Turks and cooperating with them the last few years.
We were also angry about Russia basically doing little to scold Erdoğan during the 2020 provocations and also not doing enough to stop Erdoğan from converting Agia Sofia into a mosque.


Also when they didn't protect the Armenians,although that has more to do with Pashinyan's government.
 

A.P. Richelieu

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Oh I didn't ignore it. I know about it.
Russians wanted Yanukovich who was traditionally pro-Russian. It makes sense that they want Ukraine under their sphere of influence. Haven't Americans removed or supported governments,based on their interests?

And no,I don't promote Russia's narrative on all occasion. On the contrary,Putin had disappointed and angered a lot Greeks by giving S-400s to the Turks and cooperating with them the last few years.
We were also angry about Russia basically doing little to scold Erdoğan during the 2020 provocations and also not doing enough to stop Erdoğan from converting Agia Sofia into a mosque.


Also when they didn't protect the Armenians,although that has more to do with Pashinyan's government.

You conveniently ignored that the Maidan protest were warranted when you described them as a coup.
You are obviously OK with Russians meddling with Ukraine.
That makes you someone that fights for a tribe, and not someone that fights for the truth.
Your ”tribe” then appears to be orthodoxy.
 

SecularNationalist

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Putin made the corrupt Yanukovich sign an agreement way before that, against the intention of the Parliament, without asking anyone else.
Now this is where you lie the most.
Like all presidents after Yanukovich are any better. Zelenenky ,Poroshenko are all corrupt and incompetent. But as long as they will polish boots of US and NATO , you people wont complain about them.
Those so called public process were fueled by the US and it's proxies. Just like what you did in libya or other places.
Yanukovich fled because you people tried to assassinate him as well like gadaffi using crowds of people.
Ukraine has been trying to join NATO since 2008. So why now? They have been refused and not even close to being admitted. You just saw Turkey willing to veto Sweden and Finland's membership and they have no conflicts.
Because you also start promoting nazism in Ukraine which also pose security threat to Russia.
 

A.P. Richelieu

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Now this is where you lie the most.
Like all presidents after Yanukovich are any better. Zelenenky ,Poroshenko are all corrupt and incompetent. But as long as they will polish boots of US and NATO , you people wont complain about them.
Those so called public process were fueled by the US and it's proxies. Just like what you did in libya or other places.
Yanukovich fled because you people tried to assassinate him as well like gadaffi using crowds of people.

So instead of responding to the well known fact that Russia meddled in the internal affairs of Ukraine you engage in whataboutism and fantasies.

There goes your credibility.

Ukraine scores 33/100 on the corruption index
compared to 31 for Russia (and 30 for Pakistan).

That is why they are not allowed either in the EU or in NATO. The EU is working with Ukraine to establish better procedures to decrease corruption and Ukraine increased 3 points since last time.
 
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Foinikas

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You conveniently ignored that the Maidan protest were warranted when you described them as a coup.
And it wasn't a coup of some sort? By organized ultra-nationalist parties like Pravii Sektor and Svoboda?

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You are obviously OK with Russians meddling with Ukraine.
In 2014 yes,now no. I think it was a big mistake to invade Ukraine. I don't know what they were thinking and they look like they didn't know what they wanted to achieve either.

That makes you someone that fights for a tribe, and not someone that fights for the truth.
Your ”tribe” then appears to be orthodoxy.
Bulgarians are Orthodox too. Do you know how many wars we've had against the Bulgarians up to WWII?

Skopjans are Orthodox too. We've had the naming dispute and bad relations ever since Tito decided to rename Vardarska into "Socialist Republic of Macedonia".

Russians are Orthodox and they went pro-Turkish the last few years. We didn't like that. Not the people,not the government.

So I'm actually someone who fights for the truth. Were you fighting for the truth when Azov,Aidar and Dnipro were killing people in the Donbas? Or were you shouting "sieg heil"? Does that offend you? I'll bet it does. But my point is,the whole Western World cries foul and suddenly loves Ukraine,but for 8 years was oblivious to the Ukrainian government's crimes against the people of Donbas.
 

A.P. Richelieu

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And it wasn't a coup of some sort? By organized ultra-nationalist parties like Pravii Sektor and Svoboda?

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In 2014 yes,now no. I think it was a big mistake to invade Ukraine. I don't know what they were thinking and they look like they didn't know what they wanted to achieve either.


Bulgarians are Orthodox too. Do you know how many wars we've had against the Bulgarians up to WWII?

Skopjans are Orthodox too. We've had the naming dispute and bad relations ever since Tito decided to rename Vardarska into "Socialist Republic of Macedonia".

Russians are Orthodox and they went pro-Turkish the last few years. We didn't like that. Not the people,not the government.

So I'm actually someone who fights for the truth. Were you fighting for the truth when Azov,Aidar and Dnipro were killing people in the Donbas? Or were you shouting "sieg heil"? Does that offend you? I'll bet it does. But my point is,the whole Western World cries foul and suddenly loves Ukraine,but for 8 years was oblivious to the Ukrainian government's crimes against the people of Donbas.

This is the real picture of the Maidan demonstrations.
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Ordinary people showing their discontent.

Changes as a result of votes in the Parliament cannot be considered to be a coup.


”The bloodiest week in Ukraine’s post-Soviet history concluded on February 21 with an EU-brokered agreement between Yanukovych and opposition leaders that called for early elections and the formation of an interim unity government. The parliament responded by overwhelmingly approving the restoration of the 2004 constitution, thus reducing the power of the presidency. In subsequent votes, the parliament approved a measure granting full amnesty to protesters, fired internal affairs minister Vitaliy Zakharchenko for his role in ordering the crackdown on the Maidan, and decriminalized elements of the legal code under which Tymoshenko had been prosecuted. Yanukovych, his power base crumbling, fled the capital ahead of an impeachment vote that stripped him of his powers as president. Meanwhile, Tymoshenko, who had been released from prison, traveled to Kyiv, where she delivered an impassioned speech to the crowd assembled in the Maidan. Fatherland deputy leader Oleksandr Turchynov was appointed acting president, a move that Yanukovych decried as a coup d’état. On February 24 the interim government charged Yanukovych with mass murder in connection with the deaths of the Maidan protesters and issued a warrant for his arrest.”


While Ukraine has their share of right wing extremists, they do not get more than 1-2% of the votes in elections.

Donbass and Crimea were taken over in Russia coups.
An attempted coup in Odessa failed.

Ukraine has been fighting a war of self-defense in Donbass since then against the Russian Army. Russian leadership, and Russian materiel and soldiers disguised as volunteers.
Civilians die on both sides in this war started by Russia.
 

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Foinikas

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This is the real picture of the Maidan demonstrations.
View attachment 845139

Ordinary people showing their discontent.

Changes as a result of votes in the Parliament cannot be considered to be a coup.

While Ukraine has their share of right wing extremists, they do not get more than 1-2% of the votes in elections.
And yet,they seem to be constantly at the forefront of everything happening in Ukraine since 2014. Pravii Sektor,Svoboda and other Banderist parties.

Donbass and Crimea were taken over in Russia coups.
An attempted coup in Odessa failed.
They were the regions with the highest percentage of Russian and Pro-Russian Ukrainians. These people too,rose up and protested against Euromaidan. They formed militias and defended their regions against the perceived Neo-Nazi coup,that's
how they saw it. They considered Euromaidan a "fascist" and pro-Western victory.

What gives the USA the right to basically give Kosovo to the Albanians,but Russians can't take Crimea back? Where is the legitimacy,that allows USA to grant areas to certain parties,for example the Kurds in Iraq and Syria,the Albanians in Kosovo,but when others do the same,they shout and call it a "occupation"?
 

A.P. Richelieu

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And yet,they seem to be constantly at the forefront of everything happening in Ukraine since 2014. Pravii Sektor,Svoboda and other Banderist parties.


They were the regions with the highest percentage of Russian and Pro-Russian Ukrainians. These people too,rose up and protested against Euromaidan. They formed militias and defended their regions against the perceived Neo-Nazi coup,that's
how they saw it. They considered Euromaidan a "fascist" and pro-Western victory.

What gives the USA the right to basically give Kosovo to the Albanians,but Russians can't take Crimea back? Where is the legitimacy,that allows USA to grant areas to certain parties,for example the Kurds in Iraq and Syria,the Albanians in Kosovo,but when others do the same,they shout and call it a "occupation"?
These ”people” in Donbass were led by Russians and the war was fought by a very large force from the Russian Army disguised as volunteers.
That makes it a violation of the Geneva Convention.

There was no repression of East Ukraina that could motivate this. The Serbs caused the splitup of Yugoslavia by trying to repress the other regions, including committing genocide. Iraq has committed genocide against Kurds.

The US has not granted any areas and has not annexed any territory in Iraq or Serbia.

The operation to occupy Crimea started February 20, even before Yanukovich fled.
 

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