• Monday, February 17, 2020

SU 30 MKI Vs RAFALE SPECS

Discussion in 'Indian Defence Forum' started by core, Jun 19, 2012.

  1. sancho

    sancho ELITE MEMBER

    Messages:
    13,011
    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2009
    Ratings:
    +27 / 10,499 / -0
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    Germany
    That's the only important part of your post, but untill there is any reliable source of J10Bs radar performance and RCS reduction features, you can't have a credible assessment about it's BVR performance! The points you gave are completely useless in this regard, because they have no relation to it, which actually shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. :rolleyes:

    Again, only people that have no idea about Rafales capabilities and performance can say that. When we compare J10A and current Rafale F3 for example, you also would see that the Rafale has superior flight performance thanks to higher TWR, lower wingloading, supercruise capabilities, a lower RCS, better range, payload and weapons..., let alone the advantages of FSO optronics and SPECTRA EWS offers.
    When we take the facts, the only 2 points where J10A has an advantage are those that you came up with, maximum speed and service ceilling. J10B hopefully will be more improved, which makes it closer to Rafale, but so far there is nobody that can really say how close it will be, because all we have are just some basic pics of the flight tests.


    Btw, your claim that Rafale was not designed for air superiority can simply be countered by the fact, that the first Rafales produced were Rafale Ms of F1 standard (purely A2A), meant for the air superiority role of French navy carriers, next to the Super √Čtendard strike fighters:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  2. UKBengali

    UKBengali ELITE MEMBER

    Messages:
    14,613
    Joined:
    May 29, 2011
    Ratings:
    +10 / 17,231 / -2
    Country:
    Bangladesh
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    OK. Mr genius.

    Whatever makes you feel better.

    The fact that you resorted to personal insults tells me two things:

    1. You are an insecure person.
    2. You do not feel confident in your position.

    Have a good day.

    I am done with you and the rest of the Indians here as far as this topic is concerned.
     
  3. DrSomnath999

    DrSomnath999 SENIOR MEMBER

    Messages:
    2,422
    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2011
    Ratings:
    +4 / 2,907 / -0
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    India
    Oh boy!!
    problem with u is that ur a clueless poster which doent know what he is posting & on top of it u dont want to learn anything.
    Instead to attract cheap attention u dragged J10 into this thread & make a laughing stock of yourselves ,when ur B.S got debunked by me & every indian member , then ur blaming me for personal attacks.:lol:
    Dude if u r dying for attention rather join DISNEY forum:D

    Got it ,now beat it:wave:
     
  4. danger007

    danger007 ELITE MEMBER

    Messages:
    9,737
    Joined:
    May 30, 2011
    Ratings:
    +2 / 8,107 / -28
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    India

    please don't get anger on us....keep posting for us...... we need your assistance alot...... Dr somnath999, Sancho,and all others are talking with lack of knowledge ..... tell me what more wonders that J-10B can do... tell me difference between air superiority fighter, air dominance and air supremacy fighters..............
     
  5. Zabaniyah

    Zabaniyah ELITE MEMBER

    Messages:
    14,913
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2011
    Ratings:
    +7 / 12,367 / -0
    Country:
    Bangladesh
    Location:
    Bangladesh
    mmm....not a bad comparison.

    But no offense, seems kinda biased toward the Rafale :D

    And actually, the Rafale is more economical than the MKI. But their roles are still quite different.

    A rather premature conclusion isn't it?

    We don't even know what the J-10B is, or what the FC-20 is.

    He is not talking with any knowledge, since none of us (including Chinese posters) even know the exact technical details of the J-10B.

    There's a lot of secrecy in the plane. And if it is intended for exports at any point in the future, it'll only be so to a few select countries. That puts it in a similar profile as the F-15 as far as export controls go.
     
  6. DrSomnath999

    DrSomnath999 SENIOR MEMBER

    Messages:
    2,422
    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2011
    Ratings:
    +4 / 2,907 / -0
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    India
    1st of all Hi ZAB
    Gud to see u back

    Well there is no offence but it is a fact that Rafale would overshadow SU 30 mki importance.Yes both have their roles but that
    doesnt mean Rafale cant do air superiority missions nor that mean SU 30 mki cant do Air to ground missions.But Rafale is technologically & capabilty wise more superior to SU 30 mki .Thats a fact


    Exactly
    not only premature but incorrect ,we dont know China can also induct J20 or India can also induct PAKFA ,which would automatically be the most advanced air superiority fighter in the region in the coming decade.
    so it is foolish reply really:lol:


    well J10b is still in late development phase ,But we cant get any technical details right now ,earliaer it was said J10b is going
    to have AESA radar but recently a chinese member Chinese tiger told in a thread that J10b is going to have PESA radar & j10C is going to have AESA radar so it adds to the confusion .So u cant compare a fighter without knowing accurate specifications about that plane.
     
  7. timetravel

    timetravel SENIOR MEMBER

    Messages:
    2,665
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2012
    Ratings:
    +0 / 1,602 / -1
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    India
    there is no need of comparing J-10 b,c,d,e,f at all..

    Infact there will be two best fighters in this region in form of Rafale and MKI. Nothing with the chinese (including j-20) even comes closer to them for at least two decades.
     
  8. DrSomnath999

    DrSomnath999 SENIOR MEMBER

    Messages:
    2,422
    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2011
    Ratings:
    +4 / 2,907 / -0
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    India
    BOSS
    now plz dont bring J20 into this thread .
     
  9. satishkumarcsc

    satishkumarcsc SENIOR MEMBER

    Messages:
    2,632
    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2008
    Ratings:
    +0 / 1,389 / -0
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    India
    Trust me...if you had known more of my profession you would stick with a male one.
     
  10. DrSomnath999

    DrSomnath999 SENIOR MEMBER

    Messages:
    2,422
    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2011
    Ratings:
    +4 / 2,907 / -0
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    India
    BTW r u dentist also????:partay:
     
  11. Fahhad

    Fahhad FULL MEMBER

    New Recruit

    Messages:
    1
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2012
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    3d tvc engine was only applied on su-37 terminator.i think su-30 mki is not su-37.su-37 was one of the costly fighter plane(more than f-22).so it ts like day dream when u say that su-37 and su-30 mki have same config.
     
  12. kurup

    kurup ELITE MEMBER

    Messages:
    10,566
    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2012
    Ratings:
    +5 / 12,801 / -6
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    India
    Su 37 costlier than f22 .....WHERE DO YOU GET THAT FROM ........
     
  13. manofwar

    manofwar FULL MEMBER

    Messages:
    1,151
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    Ratings:
    +0 / 672 / -0
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    India
    3 D TVC is also on Su 35, but I am sure that it still doesn't cost more than $227 million pop:blink:
    Su 30 is similiar to Su 35 but due to a less powerful engine it was unable to accommodate an AESA radar or 3D TVC. The Super Sukhoi will have all this presumably.
     
  14. DrSomnath999

    DrSomnath999 SENIOR MEMBER

    Messages:
    2,422
    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2011
    Ratings:
    +4 / 2,907 / -0
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    India
    What bag of B.S man???
    who told u Su 37 is costlier than F22 which is not even inducted by Russia:lol:
    stop making fool of yourself:D
     
  15. DrSomnath999

    DrSomnath999 SENIOR MEMBER

    Messages:
    2,422
    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2011
    Ratings:
    +4 / 2,907 / -0
    Country:
    India
    Location:
    India
    DEBUNKING OF CHINESE WET DREAMS ABOUT J 10B SUPERIOTY OVER RAFALE

    Chinese claims that i quote

    I)The J-10B incorporates 1200 T/R AESA, which is larger than the 880 T/R RBE-2,

    ans:
    well

    1st of all there is a lot of uncertanity about whether J10b really poses AESA or PESA .ok lets us assume what NIET claims is
    correct that J10b indeed has an AESA radar but still we dont have any accurate infos about it's specification like detection range ,scan rate ,peak power,

    but we do get some idea about china's AESA radar from this chinese source that it may be having 1152 T/R modules

    http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/20110723111055450.gif

    http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/20110723111055619.gif

    http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/20110723111055270.gif

    AESA radar for J-10B will have 1152 T/R module

    well it's didn't signify any thing about it's detection range ,scan rate ,peak power, T/R modules compostion whther GaAs or GaN ??

    As the article described, the aesa radar configuration can be changed according to the nose size of the aircraft, for example, different T/R number for J-10 and J-11 .But still a long way to go for china to build an AESA radar of a fighter comparable in technology with US or European standard especially in terms of LPI(low probabilty of intercept) & electronic jamming.

    also J 10b radar which we saw in net is a test model of AESA radar not a full production AESA radar which has around 8 IFF
    dipole antenna in the main array each having capabilty of handling 2 targets at the same time which means 16 targets simultaneosly(according to WIKIpedia which the chinese members often say a very reliable source :lol:)
    in comparsiion RBE 2 aesa radar can track upto 40 air targets in look down & look up aspects in all weather under intense electronic environment
    [​IMG]





    meanwhile

    rafale though claimed to have 1000 T/R modules but Pics say it has around 880 T/R modules but that doesnt mean J10's aesa radar becomes superior as greater size radar may be powerful but that doesnt mean technologically superior.
    Well the quality of /or technology used to built T/R module of an AESA radar is more important than numbers as it should be more reliable .Well Su 30 mki bars radar even if it's a PESA radar is a very powerful radar with long detection range but it is technologically inferior to AESA radar.






    advantage of RBE 2 AESA radar
    1) SAR (synthetic aperature mode)

    2)MMIC (mono lithic microwave integrated circuits )/GaAs (gallium arsenide) technology T/R modules
    in future it may be built with GAllium nitride modules with sat com abilty
    Thales reveals 'cloud' concept for Rafale radar technologies



    3) it creates a 3 dimensional ground map covering wide area forward of the aircraft during low altitude penetration mission

    4) It's has much better LPI which is more important in todays aerial combat as todays fighter /Awacs ESM (electronic support
    measures) or RWR (radar warning receiver) system are more powerful in detecting radar waves of fighter aircraft exposing it's cover or location in air which can be fatal in aerial combat.


    5) It along with spectra system increases rafale's electronic jamming capabilty even further

    6) enhanced detection of low observable targets & improved resistance to electronic jamming

    7) much better 5th gen System core / COTS for faster computation

    Conclusion
    U just cant compare the technological experience of china in buiding AESA radar with the french Thales which have decades of experience in building radar starting from Mirage 2000 to rafale rbe radar.If thats was not the case why would have pak airforce officials died to have french avionics in their JF17 in comparision to chinese



    II)INCREASED CONCENTRATION OF COMPOSITES

    ans:
    & thats absolutely B.S
    J10b' s composites concentration is no way greater than Rafale infact dassault itself claims rafale's composite concentration is more than 70 %
    Optimized airframe
    [​IMG]

    Hexcel company of france which supplies composties to rafale are pioneer in developing composites for aircraft meanwhile god knows what is the standard of chinese composites .????
    Hexcel Composites - France
    Hexcel.com - Carbon fiber and composites for aerospace, wind energy and industrial







    III)BETTER RAM COATING


    Ans:
    another garbage assumption!!

    rafale has much high quality RAM coating than j10 ,and what cheap quality RAM coating china uses we can see from the
    pics of J20 when white flecks or patches are visible on plane surface when RAM shed off it's surface.Only J20 looks shiny in
    photoshop pics only.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    infact RAM coating can be seen in such places in rafale where u dont find in j10b
    like external refuelling probe ,


    IV)DSI

    ANs:
    yes 1 innovative thing for J10b
    DSI has an advantage in performance & some aspects in stealth as it removes the gap present in between the diverter blade
    & fuselarge of the plane.but to be fair enough it has no major role in combat.

    But some analyst says DSI cant withstand mach 2+ Speeds which is yet to be proven ???? optimum speed for DSI is around
    MACh 1.6-1.7 like that we see in jf 17 & F-35 So it needs to be seen can J10b achieve mach 2+ speed which J10A claims to have



    V)136 Kn ENGINE

    ans:
    WS 10A 132 Kn engine right from the very beginnning has been under lot of scrutiny though chinese are determined to induct it no matter how good or bad it performs.Though WS 10b has been boasting of 136 Kn along with TVC which is still in development .Yes they have inducted WS 10a engines in J11b & even j-15 is going to have those engines ,but those are twin engine fighters
    meanwhile inducting a single INDIGENIOUS engine fighter hasnt been so easy for chinese may be inducting a twin engine fighter with indigeniuos engines is more safer & reliable in comparision to a single indigenous engine fighter.Well same goes for WS 13engines i think for Jf17 also .& that too rumours ofchinese buying russian engines keep on popping in the media or internet every now & then .:lol:




    infact serious misconception exists in the mind of our chinese friends about WS 10A 136kn advantage over Scnema M88 3 engine

    u should understand thrust to weight ratio of plane is more important than thrust of engine of a plane

    which rafale Thrust/weight ratio : 1.10 (100% fuel, 2 EM A2A missile, 2 IR A2A missile) excels in comparision to
    J10b Thrust/weight ratio : 0.96 (with AL-31); 1.017 (with WS-10A) thaanks to it's twin engines fighter


    other advantages of Rafale's M88 3 /M88 eco engines

    1) it can supercruise but WS 10A no

    2) it has far less IR signature than WS 10A thanks to it's 2 cooling channels

    3) it's better engine TBO

    4) scenema FADEC is much superior to WS 10a




    VI)Mach 2 speed

    Ans:
    another funny ideology i think one should understand that plane cannot attain mach 2 speed every time if it does that it would be through help of after burner the plane would ran out of entire fuel stored in it & it would increase plane's IR
    signature a lot which would be visible by enemy' IRST like rafale's FSO which is claimed to be capable of detecting IR signatures of plane from 120km .

    well it is much better to have supercruise planes which doent need after burners to maintain speed which rafale has .If thats
    the case then Mirage 2000 which has a top speed well above mach2+ would be superior to F-35 which has mach 1.7 as top speed:lol:

    VII)20300 m service ceiling

    ANS:
    i would rather say it's vintage aerial combat ideology our chinese friends beleive that having a faster plane with higher ceiling would help them to release BVR missiles at such height which would give their BVR missiles more kinetic energy with more range & they would destroy rafale with it's SD 10 A or B misssiles at much longer range & rafale pilots would be sitting ducks & would not be having any self protection suite like SPECTRA in order to save their A$$es .LOOLLZ


    well it's true that indeed BVR missiles range increase at high altitudes & with increased speed but it doent increase it's
    kill probabilty of BVraam missile . Infact Kill probabilty of a missile depends upon the quality of seeker(IR or EM) of missile & abilty of ECM of enemy target plane rather than range of a missile.Meanwhile Rafale has one of the most deadliest

    BVRAAM of this planet the Meteor worlds 1st ramjet powered missile having one of the largest No escape zone (NEZ)
    &
    MICA IR
    bvaam missile which is one of longest IR missile availabe right now.

    & for self protection against chinese missiles rafale has SPECTRA electronic warfare suite which i hope doent need introduction as everyone knows about it's capabilty