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Strategic restraint or loss of capabilities?

313ghazi

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Cowardice by top brass. The establishment has always been pessemistic, negative, reactive, unambitious, apart from when it comes to real estate. We've never fully grasped any opportunity handed to us, never fully exploited any situation, never thought to use the old addage "it's better to ask forgiveness than permission".

You can see the examples internally and externally. In the UK Dr David Kelly blew the whistle in the WMD lies. He was later found in a forest with both his wrists cut. They claimed it was suicide. There was an enquiry which whitewashed the whole event and his statements. The British press responded by leaving their front pages blank to demonstrate against the whitewash. The next day everything continued as normal.

In our country even Saudi saved Nawaz Sharif from the noose. People speak and act against the state without any consequence.

People when actually were aggressive and on the front foot were the exception. The current COAS is ridiculous.
 

The Terminator

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First, the Chinese embassy was attacked, we did nothing. Some have postulated that Galwan might have been payback for that, regardless, the attack was conducted on our land by Indian proxies and WE did nothing. Then came an attack on PSX soon after the Shanghai stock exchange had bought a 40% stake signaling greater interest in the Pakistani economy, by the same proxies, we did nothing despite the fact that the heart of the Pakistani financial sector was targeted in broad daylight. Then the Chinese ambassador himself had a narrow escape when the Quetta Serena hotel bomb attempt failed.TTP claimed the responsibility. One might ask what beef TTP has with the Chinese, unlike the Baloch secessionist militants. This clearly shows from where TTP took its instructions to orchestrate this attack. And sticking to the pattern, we did nothing. Now the most strategic project (Dasu) that is vital for our water, food, and energy security was brazenly attacked by the same hostile element and if history is the guide here, we would not do anything. Yesterday, two Chinese engineers were injured in a gun attack in Karachi and the responsibility for it was claimed by the Indian proxy again. Few questions arise from these happenings and our continued inability to either thwart enemy designs to drive a wedge between Pakistan and her most steadfast ally OR hitting back in the sub-conventional space as a deterrent.

1. Are we practicing strategic restrain until we rid ourselves of FATF greylist or a favorable end to Afghan conflict? It must be noted that today we have come to a juncture where the Indian side is not even hiding its machinations and Jaishankar gets to openly boast about keeping us on the greylist. Furthermore, is there even a favorable outcome for us to the Afghan conflict? Afghan Taliban are the least trustworthy actors out there. The CNN interview of TTP amir drops hints about operational independence TTP foresees for itself once TTA sweeps across Afghanistan.

2. Why is our intelligence network unable to bust these networks before they do the damage? If Indian intelligence institutions are able to dismantle the modules in Kashmir and elsewhere in India, why are we unable to replicate what we did during the Raheel Shareef era?

3. Why are we not hitting back? Have we lost the capability to do so due to LoC's anti-infiltration grid or the growing capacity of the Indian state to manage its borders and secure the hinterland?

Looking forward to your views on these points and an informed discussion.
The core reason of all of our issues is one liner.
"Moral Bankruptcy" that's it.

From beggar to President we all are morally bankrupt people. All of us, yeah that means including our mullahs and military ranks too.



And please don't blame Afghan Taliban for our own wrongdoings. Afghanistan was our friendly allied country with our supported Taliban regime there. What Musharraf did to them? Handed over the Ambassador of your brotherly neighbor country to their hostile invaders the US, and breaking every international diplomatic law and moral/religious code of conduct. You can't touch the envoy/ambassador of another regime deployed within your country. Try handing over the ambassadors of any of the Gulf or Western states to their enemies and then look what happens to you after that!

You sided against your brotherly, Muslim, Legitimate Afghan Taliban regime as it was duly recognized by Pakistan and facilitated the US war crimes in Afghanistan and our tribal areas. Even then Afghan Taliban never attacked Pakistan directly as they had the capacity to do so, as they forced the US to acquit Afghanistan. Even now I don't understand why our PM is refusing to cooperate/recognize Afghan Taliban's stake in future Afghan Govt. Whereas UK, Russia, China etc all agree to cooperate and work with any future regime of Afghanistan including the Afghan Talibans too if they get into power. Afghan Taliban and TTP are two different, dinsttinct organizations with their dinstict history, and very distinctive aims and goals to achieve.
 

El Sidd

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Alhamdulilah. We the Punjabis are genociding everyone. Please blame 911 on us too. Thanks.
I didn't mention Punjabi folks. I mentioned fields of Punjab where the booty and bounty lies.

You have an irrational soft spot for foreign muslims and they are using it against you.
Maybe they are using your greed to sit on worlds trade highway and extract interest.
 

Arulmozhi Varman

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It has after Dasu. PS. would you say the same about your country and its security infrastructure that blames everything on Pakistan from spy pigeons to support for the insurgency in Kashmir (where the militants are so dry that they are fighting and being butchered with 9 mms in their hands) to farmers protest.
We don't blame Pakistan for Naxal attacks or attacks in NE. Pakistani support for Kashmir "militants" is well known. When incidents like 26/11 which happened from Pakistani soil or the leadership of Indian Mujahideen which orchestrated various attacks from Pakistani soil happens we blame you guys with proof. We don't go to US with proof which don't stand the test of court. With our evidences US has 2 people on jail for 26/11 attacks pointing to Pakistani hand.

It's time for Pakistan to update is police force instead of blaming every armed robbery on India.
 

Pak Nationalist

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We don't blame Pakistan for Naxal attacks or attacks in NE. Pakistani support for Kashmir "militants" is well known. When incidents like 26/11 which happened from Pakistani soil or the leadership of Indian Mujahideen which orchestrated various attacks from Pakistani soil happens we blame you guys with proof. We don't go to US with proof which don't stand the test of court. With our evidences US has 2 people on jail for 26/11 attacks pointing to Pakistani hand.

It's time for Pakistan to update is police force instead of blaming every armed robbery on India.
Our proofs are not acceptable for uncle sam because of the alignment of interests that has taken place between you and them. Even your politicization of and owning that politicization of the key global financial watchdog's mission is kosher for your new benefactors as long as you play ball on China. In 26/11, American citizens became victims. America was bound to take an exception to that. Pakistan does not have the reach to Naxals or NE because of geographical constraints. There you blame the Chinese. But yes, we do need to invest in strengthening our law enforcement infrastructure.
The core reason of all of our issues is one liner.
"Moral Bankruptcy" that's it.

From beggar to President we all are morally bankrupt people. All of us, yeah that means including our mullahs and military ranks too.



And please don't blame Afghan Taliban for our own wrongdoings. Afghanistan was our friendly allied country with our supported Taliban regime there. What Musharraf did to them? Handed over the Ambassador of your brotherly neighbor country to their hostile invaders the US, and breaking every international diplomatic law and moral/religious code of conduct. You can't touch the envoy/ambassador of another regime deployed within your country. Try handing over the ambassadors of any of the Gulf or Western states to their enemies and then look what happens to you after that!

You sided against your brotherly, Muslim, Legitimate Afghan Taliban regime as it was duly recognized by Pakistan and facilitated the US war crimes in Afghanistan and our tribal areas. Even then Afghan Taliban never attacked Pakistan directly as they had the capacity to do so, as they forced the US to acquit Afghanistan. Even now I don't understand why our PM is refusing to cooperate/recognize Afghan Taliban's stake in future Afghan Govt. Whereas UK, Russia, China etc all agree to cooperate and work with any future regime of Afghanistan including the Afghan Talibans too if they get into power. Afghan Taliban and TTP are two different, dinsttinct organizations with their dinstict history, and very distinctive aims and goals to achieve.
We did provide sanctuaries to AT leadership and their families though. That is the reason for what little influence we have left on them.
 
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KaiserX

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We don't blame Pakistan for Naxal attacks or attacks in NE. Pakistani support for Kashmir "militants" is well known. When incidents like 26/11 which happened from Pakistani soil or the leadership of Indian Mujahideen which orchestrated various attacks from Pakistani soil happens we blame you guys with proof. We don't go to US with proof which don't stand the test of court. With our evidences US has 2 people on jail for 26/11 attacks pointing to Pakistani hand.

It's time for Pakistan to update is police force instead of blaming every armed robbery on India.
So what if Pakistan supports Kashmiri militants? India also supports Baloch militants and apart from its outcry or complaints against Islamist jihadist, has even provided funds to the likes of TTP.

India has supported far more militant/proxy forces in neighboring countries compared to Pakistan.

You are lucky Pakistan has kept its support to militants to the kashmir region alone. Had we extended support to Khalistanis, marxists, naxalites, dravidians, etc... then India would be in a whole other doldrum.
 

Ahmet Pasha

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I didn't mention Punjabi folks. I mentioned fields of Punjab where the booty and bounty lies.



Maybe they are using your greed to sit on worlds trade highway and extract interest.
Yea even mount doom is located in Punjab. Where Sauton forged the ring. Blame that on Punjab as well.
 

Arulmozhi Varman

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So what if Pakistan supports Kashmiri militants? India also supports Baloch militants and apart from its outcry or complaints against Islamist jihadist, has even provided funds to the likes of TTP.

India has supported far more militant/proxy forces in neighboring countries compared to Pakistan.

You are lucky Pakistan has kept its support to militants to the kashmir region alone. Had we extended support to Khalistanis, marxists, naxalites, dravidians, etc... then India would be in a whole other doldrum.
Lol. I am a "Dravidian" myself here. Would love to see Pakistanis try. As I said again, not a single iota of admissible evidence has been provided by Pakistan. I am not saying India is not creating issues in Pak, but definitely not all the groups. TTP is a monster of your own creation. We had nothing to do with it.

As I said forget US. Even China has refused to believe that it is Indian elements attacking them. Either Indian intelligence is too brilliant that they are covering their tracks wonderfully or Pakistani internal security is woeful (and people really have issues with Pakistani state) to say the least.
 

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Such incidents will only increase especially with the detoriating situation in Afghanistan. Right now, we simply need to fortify our defenses and curtail the spill-over. Our LEAs were already stretched and now BLF/BLA, TTP and other orgs are trying to create some space for themselves.
 

MilSpec

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View attachment 766378

Such incidents will only increase especially with the detoriating situation in Afghanistan. Right now, we simply need to fortify our defenses and curtail the spill-over. Our LEAs were already stretched and now BLF/BLA, TTP and other orgs are trying to create some space for themselves.
Quite antithetical, given there is so much cheerleading here for the Taliban's increased influence in Afghanistan?
 

sohailbarki

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Cowardice by top brass. The establishment has always been pessemistic, negative, reactive, unambitious, apart from when it comes to real estate. We've never fully grasped any opportunity handed to us, never fully exploited any situation, never thought to use the old addage "it's better to ask forgiveness than permission".

You can see the examples internally and externally. In the UK Dr David Kelly blew the whistle in the WMD lies. He was later found in a forest with both his wrists cut. They claimed it was suicide. There was an enquiry which whitewashed the whole event and his statements. The British press responded by leaving their front pages blank to demonstrate against the whitewash. The next day everything continued as normal.

In our country even Saudi saved Nawaz Sharif from the noose. People speak and act against the state without any consequence.

People when actually were aggressive and on the front foot were the exception. The current COAS is ridiculous.
Spot on, Since Bajwa took over we have grown weaker. Raheel on the other hand struck fear in the hearts of enemy.
 

Pak Nationalist

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Cowardice by top brass. The establishment has always been pessemistic, negative, reactive, unambitious, apart from when it comes to real estate. We've never fully grasped any opportunity handed to us, never fully exploited any situation, never thought to use the old addage "it's better to ask forgiveness than permission".

You can see the examples internally and externally. In the UK Dr David Kelly blew the whistle in the WMD lies. He was later found in a forest with both his wrists cut. They claimed it was suicide. There was an enquiry which whitewashed the whole event and his statements. The British press responded by leaving their front pages blank to demonstrate against the whitewash. The next day everything continued as normal.

In our country even Saudi saved Nawaz Sharif from the noose. People speak and act against the state without any consequence.

People when actually were aggressive and on the front foot were the exception. The current COAS is ridiculous.
Do you think this could change in 16-17 months when the top brass is up for a shakeup following the current COAS's departure? We had faced similar problems when another chief was given an extension. Why exactly are chiefs extended? Does it have anything to do with political leaders saving their own chair by giving extension to a chief who they know they could work with without him causing problems for them on the political front? If so, what is the solution? If extensions to army chiefs create problems and the insecurity of political leaders at the helm is the cause for those extensions, what might be the possible solutions? We have all seen that the enemy has gotten emboldened manifold during these past 5 years or so. We did not even capitalize on the situation when it was engaged with its back against the wall at the LAC. In return, it intensified its terror campaign inside Pakistan. It is neutrality in 1962 leading to the Rann of Kutch adventure (real precursor to operation Gibraltar & hence 1965 war) from the Indian side in 1965 all over again. History is a guide that whenever Indians have been given latitude by us not capitalizing on their weakness, they have made Pakistan deeply regret that in due time. On the other hand, Indians used our weakness during the 1971 civil war to their full advantage and cut Pakistan to size. Extensions have backfired on both occasions post-2007.
Spot on, Since Bajwa took over we have grown weaker. Raheel on the other hand struck fear in the hearts of enemy.
Raheel Shareef
Quite antithetical, given there is so much cheerleading here for the Taliban's increased influence in Afghanistan?
It is all quite confusing. All sides playing each other. Pakistani citizens who are considering TTA victories their own are celebrating prematurely. We need to pause and see how TTA conducts itself in due time before taking any absolute positions.
 
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Quite antithetical, given there is so much cheerleading here for the Taliban's increased influence in Afghanistan?
There isn't any ambivalence in Pakistan's offical stance on the matter, is it?
It is better lest we take her word for it.
 

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