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Strategic restraint or loss of capabilities?

Pak Nationalist

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did you somehow miss the "media black out" part? how can there be "evidence" if those casualties are being hidden? yes, news filters through every now and then but with very little internet and zero media, it'll be pretty difficult to get the accurate indian casualties but as the indian army chef niravanne implied, infiltration has been continuing until the Feb ceasefire by india. don't worry, he'll soon admit they it actually never stopped. now what do you think those infiltrators have been doing if not butchering the indian sainkis? playing pattycake? needless to say, if the inept indian army was capable of stopping them, they would've been parading the dead bodies of those infiltrators left right and center 24/7 but they are not. Rest assured, Pakistan has mastered the art in asymmetric warfare without attracting attention to itself while the indian army is stuck in the streets of Kashmir & under Chinese boots. don't forget, Pakistan’s aim is to silently kill them, not boast about it. the modi debacle of aug 5th has only given Imran Khan the perfect excuse to divert world's attention from what we are doing to what they are going while we continue to infiltrate only a heck of a lot more. ye sab band darvaazon kay khel hotay hain, they are interested in maximizing enemy casualties without attracting attention to themselves, not running social media threads chest thumping about the enemy casualties just so you can feel better.
Their media can break the news on embarrassing Chinese incursions in Laddakh (which their government denied vehemently) but not disclose military casualties? Infiltrations had stopped post ceasefire Naravane had said. There were a few reported this month, however, the impact is invisible. Baloch (mostly) and TTP (at times) insurgents release videos of their attacks. TRF, PAFF, etc. did so for a short duration as well then stopped. Proofs of butchery easily emerge in this age of social media. Media gag as you contend may be limited to IoK, but the families of IA soldiers who bite the dust would post their eulogies on social media and identify how they met their end. Can you spot such hidden cases for Indian soldiers? And hidden here means something which the government does not want in the public domain, not something which could not come into public domain regardless of what the government desires. This forum is for discussion on the defense of Pakistan and we are all patriots here. Let us discuss these serious matters confronting our country without animosity towards each other and give audience to all perspectives.
 

Pak Nationalist

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He was referring to Salala.
Moderators should immediately ban such handles whose sole purpose of being on this forum is to de-track our discussions by engaging in upmanship. Your new benefactor has left Afghanistan based on the support TTA received from this country. Do check its casualty figures and compare those with Salala. Then compare your own performance against the Chinese in 1962. You are maintaining the 'proud' tradition of 62 to date. In fact, you have progressed a step further where you do not even accept Chinese capture of your territory just so your public does not demand your military to act. Do not pollute my thread if you do not have anything relevant to add to the subject matter.
@Pak Nationalist

the internet is literally littered with hundreds (if not thousands) of news items like this, but goi either remains silent on them or simply labels them as suicides or "accidental deaths"...doesn't mean it ain't happenin'!
I came across this thread. However, we need to find family accounts of these soldiers on social media that verify this claim. Family members spill the beans on the nature of casualties and the events surrounding these.
 
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Pak Nationalist

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Moderators should immediately ban such handles whose sole purpose of being on this forum is to de-track our discussions by engaging in upmanship. Your new benefactor has left Afghanistan based on the support TTA received from this country. Do check its casualty figures and compare those with Salala. Then compare your own performance against the Chinese in 1962. You are maintaining the 'proud' tradition of 62 to date. In fact, you have progressed a step further where you do not even accept Chinese capture of your territory just so your public does not demand your military to act. Do not pollute my thread if you do not have anything relevant to the subject matter of this post to add.

I came across this thread. However, we need to find family accounts of these soldiers on social media that verify this claim. Family members spill the beans on the nature of casualties and the events surrounding these.
There are dedicated Indian accounts that do that in the case of Pakistani soldiers. We theorize or make similar claims but have never produced corroborating evidence. Evidence is everything. It is also needed to demoralize the Indian public as to how their government is hiding the casualties it is undertaking in IoK. People (OSINT operators mostly) on our side have not given it a serious thought.
 

GumNaam

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Moderators should immediately ban such handles whose sole purpose of being on this forum is to de-track our discussions by engaging in upmanship. Your new benefactor has left Afghanistan based on the support TTA received from this country. Do check its casualty figures and compare those with Salala. Then compare your own performance against the Chinese in 1962. You are maintaining the 'proud' tradition of 62 to date. In fact, you have progressed a step further where you do not even accept Chinese capture of your territory just so your public does not demand your military to act. Do not pollute my thread if you do not have anything relevant to the subject matter of this post to add.

I came across this thread. However, we need to find family accounts of these soldiers on social media that verify this claim. Family members spill the beans on the nature of casualties and the events surrounding these.
family accounts? are you freakin' kiddin' me? this is india we are talking about where the sainki families can't even protest about not receiving salaries...you'll be waiting for a long time for the dead sainki's families to spill the beans, they are scared shitless of getting lynched and raped!
 

The Accountant

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We are busy in Afghanistan. The Base of these terrorist operations in Afghanistan is getting weaker and weaker. THey have speed up the operations here whereas we have speed up the operations in Afghanistan.

India is pouring a lot of money to bleed Pakistan. In longer we are destroying India's network at a very fast pace.

I am hopeful things will improve alot in couple of years specially after Taliban get stability in Afghanistan
 

Huffal

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We are same species..right. Metaphor is not your subject, I get it. 15: 1 is actually the metaphor here .

You will not pick up fight with a 15 person group when you are alone...right. if you do, you will be considered as a fool. Your Army has been doing it ...and they are foolish. Despite loosing half your country, they still want to repeat the same mistake. History has a tebdency to repeat, if lessons are not learnt. Anyway, what has to happen, will happen. One more new nation post 1971 in South Asia. Good.
Wondering how Indians feel with the quartering of akhand bharat?

Also do you base the size of a country on land mass or population?
 

Pak Nationalist

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People have expressed the desire to respond to the hybrid war imposed upon us under this thread. However, the potential reasons for our continued silence in this regard have not been forthcoming. I wanted to stimulate a discussion on those potential causes more than anything else. It would be best to address the three questions and gain some insights into what exactly is going on.
I see pragmatic pacifism responsible for our current state.
[/Q

Do you have any reason to call pacifism on display pragmatic?
 

Big_bud

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First, the Chinese embassy was attacked, we did nothing. Some have postulated that Galwan might have been payback for that, regardless, the attack was conducted on our land by Indian proxies and WE did nothing. Then came an attack on PSX soon after the Shanghai stock exchange had bought a 40% stake signaling greater interest in the Pakistani economy, by the same proxies, we did nothing despite the fact that the heart of the Pakistani financial sector was targeted in broad daylight. Then the Chinese ambassador himself had a narrow escape when the Quetta Serena hotel bomb attempt failed.TTP claimed the responsibility. One might ask what beef TTP has with the Chinese, unlike the Baloch secessionist militants. This clearly shows from where TTP took its instructions to orchestrate this attack. And sticking to the pattern, we did nothing. Now the most strategic project (Dasu) that is vital for our water, food, and energy security was brazenly attacked by the same hostile element and if history is the guide here, we would not do anything. Yesterday, two Chinese engineers were injured in a gun attack in Karachi and the responsibility for it was claimed by the Indian proxy again. Few questions arise from these happenings and our continued inability to either thwart enemy designs to drive a wedge between Pakistan and her most steadfast ally OR hitting back in the sub-conventional space as a deterrent.

1. Are we practicing strategic restrain until we rid ourselves of FATF greylist or a favorable end to Afghan conflict? It must be noted that today we have come to a juncture where the Indian side is not even hiding its machinations and Jaishankar gets to openly boast about keeping us on the greylist. Furthermore, is there even a favorable outcome for us to the Afghan conflict? Afghan Taliban are the least trustworthy actors out there. The CNN interview of TTP amir drops hints about operational independence TTP foresees for itself once TTA sweeps across Afghanistan.

2. Why is our intelligence network unable to bust these networks before they do the damage? If Indian intelligence institutions are able to dismantle the modules in Kashmir and elsewhere in India, why are we unable to replicate what we did during the Raheel Shareef era?

3. Why are we not hitting back? Have we lost the capability to do so due to LoC's anti-infiltration grid or the growing capacity of the Indian state to manage its borders and secure the hinterland?

Looking forward to your views on these points and an informed discussion.
I think it has to do with:

1. Lack of funds.
2. Lack of man power.
3. Lack of technology implementation (Both in government & ISI itself, data is not available/data has loopholes, example NADRA issued IDs to Afghans, fingerprints stolen to get sim cards etc)
4.Enemy's deep infiltration in our lines including politics, bureaucracy, police, judiciary, journalists and even in army etc.
5.There are more than one intelligence agencies against one. This region attracts too much interest, attention and money.
6.Enemy is well experienced of our fault lines and knows corrupt elements with in our lines very well.
7.All enemies are larger than Pakistan and have more funds.

Despite of all above, we have survived mainly due to jazba e emani.

Story of meeting an ISI operative:
Had the privilege of meeting someone from ISI some 9-11 years back. I asked him a lot of question regarding bomb blasts which were a routine back then, successfully carried out despite our agencies knowing that terrorists gonna target x,y and z places soon and that they have entered the city etc (This was common news back then, we had warnings, memos circulated to ministries but incident would still occur). I asked him why does it happened? He said that we have our agents inside enemy lines who live life as one of them. We can't contact them or push them to deliver information. They do when they can, what they can. It takes years to build such as asset. If we push them too hard, or force them to give us updated and exact information their cover maybe blown and they may get killed.

We can either prevent 1 attack 100% but loose our asset in the process or get information about 100 attacks and prevent most of them, however some of them unfortunately would be successful since we could not get exact information. That's the trade off.

I wont give too much information about the person himself but what he told me, he lived as one of the executives of a telephone company, he had a sports car and a heavy bike, for people he was a rich & successful care free person, his job was to mingle with high profile people. He tracked several phone numbers while talking to me and smoking his cigarette. He said intelligence is a tough life and I won't wish this life for others.

We discussed about Altaf Hussain and his shite speeches against Pakistan and Pak Army (those were extreme and rampant back then) he said don't worry about him. He would be dealt with soon, you will see. And that is true as we know today. Also, he said you have no idea about the wealth of Nawaz & Zardari's he said it is incomprehensible amount of money that these people have. I asked about their corruption and anti-state activities and he said they create troubles for us and we create troubles for them in return.

Anyways, where ever that person is today. Thanks for his service!
 
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Arulmozhi Varman

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Or the Pakistani internal state is so incapable that they are dumping any attack happens on its soil on Indian elements. It's ok for internal consumption, but when you go to the chinese saying Indians attacked you folks and Pakistan has to give proof to satisfy them. China has never overtly echoed Pakistani stance on attacks.
 

Pak Nationalist

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Or the Pakistani internal state is so incapable that they are dumping any attack happens on its soil on Indian elements. It's ok for internal consumption, but when you go to the chinese saying Indians attacked you folks and Pakistan has to give proof to satisfy them. China has never overtly echoed Pakistani stance on attacks.
It has after Dasu. PS. would you say the same about your country and its security infrastructure that blames everything on Pakistan from spy pigeons to support for the insurgency in Kashmir (where the militants are so dry that they are fighting and being butchered with 9 mms in their hands) to farmers protest.
 

The Terminator

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Bol bol k thak gaya hoon. We need a good kutta maar muhim

we did a good kutta maar muhim in 90s. Then stopped it and the result is in front of us

We need to restart that muhim again

Warna kuttai isi tarah auqat sai bahar ho jaye gai
Ab wo kutta barha ho gya he. R jn logon ne kutta Mar muhim start krni he, kai bar unky bhais me b wo kutta Nazar Ata he. Ab wo kutta asal me marnay k liy apny Jism ka b wo hissa Katna hoga jo ab us kuttay jesa hogya he. R ye kurbani deny k liy status quo kabhi raazi nahi hoga

R apko koi ghalat fehmi he k 90s me ap ne koi kutta Mara tha to asal me ap ne uski dum pe kata tha sirf. Usse pehly b r bad me b abi tk us kuttay ko awam ka gosht noch noch k khilaya gya. Kutta Mar muhim me Tb b ghareeb ka bacha Mara gya tha r ab b ghareeb ka bacha Mr rha, pr asal kuttay pe jb hath dalny ki Bari ati to apky barhon k pr jaltay.

Bs fark ab itna k ab awam k Samny us kuttay ko hush hush krty, lekin privately ab b usko gosht dal rhy wrna wo kutta Dubai London na ghoom rha hota jail se nikal k b.

US kuttay k pas 1 tota he jsme ap sb barhon ki jaan r kartoot chupay huy hen. Wo kuttay jb us totay ki garden marorh ty hen to tkleef yhan k apky barhon me r Takatwar tbky me khoob Dekhi ja skti. Wrna 2 din me jail se reha ho k rat o rat chartered flight pe konsy mulk me kuttay parvaaz krty svay hmary pyary Pakistan k.

Ye baten itni sharmnak hen isliy urdu me likhi ta k forum pe baki logon ko asi gandgi Nazar na ay. Overseas Pakistanis, dual nationals r Indians se to koi parda nahi apna wesy bhi.
 
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darksider

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its a loss of spine and loss of will.
capabilities can come and go dose not matter.
but you if dont habe will and guts then even capabilities cannot do anything.
 

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