• Sunday, December 8, 2019

Social Acceptability of the Talib & the Talib Ideology !

Discussion in 'Pakistan's Internal Security' started by Armstrong, Nov 22, 2012.

  1. muse

    muse PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    This is a a new tactic that some shadow supporters of the TB have latched on to , namely that it is the US is the cause of extremism in Pakistan - See, the strategy is to confound and paralyze you in endless analysis, and "root causes" and other rubbish - friends, it does not matter what the cause, reality is that the cure is for the extremists to stop existing, isn't that so?? So should we not make them stop existing??

    If you seek an end to extremism, then your answer cannot be any other than, "Yes, we must stop extremists from existing" - The counter argument, read Zardari, is that there will be blow back in the cities, friends, is this not happening now?? There is no other way except to go through this pain and allow it to transform our society for the better.
     
  2. Marwat Khan Lodhi

    Marwat Khan Lodhi BANNED

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    میں پشاورکا باسی ہوں، پشتونوں کے معاشرتی، سیا سی اور مزھبی پہلو پر اپنا ایک خاص نکتہ نظر رکھتا ھوں جس سے شاید اس فورم کے فوج زدھ یا دیسی پختون اپنی کم علمی یا نا پختگی کی بنا پر اتفاق نہ کرتے ھوں۔ طالبان کو سمجھنے کے لیے پختونون کو سمجھنا ضروری ھے، المیہ یہ ھے کہ پاکستانی لوگ پختون قوم کی سوچ، ثقافت، طرز زندگی اور تاریخ سے بالکل ھی نا آشنا ھوتے ھیں کیونکہ یہ سوچ کہ ’’ھم صرف اور صرف پاکستانی ھیں اور کچھ نہیں‘‘ انہیں یہ ضرورت محسوس نہیں کرنے دیتی کہ پختوتون کے با رے میں جانے۔ خود پاکستان کا پختون اپنی قوم کا ادراک نہ رکھتا ھو، کیونکہ اسے پاکستان میں یہی باور کرایا جاتا ھے کہ پختون قوم کی شناخت، پہچان اور اسکے ھر پہلو کا ادراک رکھنا ایک محدود اور علاقائ سوچ ھے اوریہ اسلام اور ملکی سالمیت کے بالکل خلاف ھے۔ ایسی صورت میں چند پشاوری لوگوں سے طالبان اور فوج جیسے پیچیدہ موضوع پر بات کرکے پختونوں پر راے قایم کرنا مناسب نہ ھوگا۔
    میں اس موضوع پر مفصل انداز میں اپنا نکتہ نطر اس وقت پیش کرونگا جب اس فورم کے دوسرے پٹھان حضرات اپنی راے کا اظہاریہاں کر چکے ھوں
    ۔
     
  3. mjnaushad

    mjnaushad SENIOR MEMBER

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    Quite true what you say....

    Yes such sympathies are on rise but its not because people want taliban way of life ... Its more of governance issue... Taliban did rebuild some houses and helped people in flood affected areas where govt was unable to reach at time because of their usual way of work. Such act created sympathy towards taliban but in this taliban did not showed their real face yet as they were not governing the area. People elected ANP and ANP is I think most anti taliban party in Pakistan. but with corruption and bad governance people did lost faith in ANP. They will select IK or PMLN next time but i dont see chance for Jamaat. So whats actually is on the rise is the cry for good governance and not taliban style govt.

    The ISI theory is old and reason behind this is lot of checkpost....people say how can a bomber cross through so many checkposts....Now who is responsible for this BS i will say our policies both govt and army.... I happen to know a ISI officer from a distance, he was a quite man but still you can tell that many suspects and actual bombers get caught in tribal areas before they even get a chance to get to cities. but you cannot check each and every vehicle....anyway when such bombers get caught no public announcement is made, no media is told , nothing ....probably because of the kind of Asma Jahangir but as the people dont see any real work happening they just assume or made assume that this is all a drama... we dont have any less support of ISI in KPK... but madrasa mind people are out there spreading venom, and people of Pakistan are famous for spreading information without confirmation....
     
  4. mjnaushad

    mjnaushad SENIOR MEMBER

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    take the hint ;)

    I was actually waiting for your view.....

    i think we are all done....please share your view.
     
  5. Farah Sohail

    Farah Sohail SENIOR MEMBER

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    I think there are certain reasons for this...

    I think one of the reasons for this is tht general public confuse Pakistani Taliban with Afghan Taliban..They think tht those planting suicide bombs in Pakistan, and killing our soldiers are people aligned with Mullah Omar..and they are doing this..bcoz Musharraf started this war on the behest of America, and since Pak at tht time, took a U turn on Afghan policy, so they are doing it in revenge..and they are justified..bcoz Pak is fighting our old partners, and Muslim brothers to please America...Everyone knows tht how much general public is against US..so anyone seen aligned with US, is automatically hated in Pakistan and those against US, are seen as heroes....So the general public donot realise tht even after the U turn on Afghan policy, Mullah Omar has never even once asked for Jihad against Pakistan..and he and his men are only fighting against occupation forces in Afghanistan..and they have even condemned TTP killing innocents in Pakistan...

    Since TTP is Tehrik e Taliban Pakistan and is using the name of Taliban..so people automatically consider them a part of Mullah Omar's men..who Pakistan recognised earlier and supported them and they were considered our allies...so ppl dont realise tht TTP and Afghan Taliban are entirely two different entities..having completely different agendas.. Although TTP use the name of Afghan taliban and uses the rhetoric tht v r fighting Pak bcoz they are America's allies..but TTP never fight the actual occupation forces in Afghan..instead they kill innocents in Pakistan only.. They use the name of Afghan taliban for cover only, and to get social acceptance but Afghan Taliban never associate themselves with TTP...but general public doesnt go into such details..they only hear and believe their rhetoric tht they are doing this as revenge..

    Lastly the most important point..for their social acceptability in Pakistan is tht I think Pakistani govt/Army has committed a huge huge blunder by saying tht TTP is "religious extremism".. While everyone knows tht Islam has nothing to do with acts of TTP...and this is only fitnah and nothing to do with Islam at all..and Islam strongly condemns acts like tht of TTP and such acts would be severly punished in Islam... It is only defaming Islam..So now, v have a situation tht TTP uses the rhetoric of Islam, tht Pak Army is fighting them bcoz they are against America(they claim to be) and Pak Army is doing this to please America..and on the other hand..v have our govt/Army saying tht TTP is religious extremism and v will fight religious extremism...Also we must know tht Musharraf who started this was considered extremely secular...and he had given extreme independence to everyone in Pakistan..whether some ppl like it or not..but ppl in Pakistan generally like to be associated with Islam and Islamic values(although a small section are against it..i-e extreme liberals).. Musharraf had done the oposite of it.. Gving freedom is one thing..but there being almost no censor board on media..it was considered against Islam.. Just look at our media and our dramas even..the kind of dramas and fashion shows even tht comes on TV now..they donot at all reflect Islamic or even values of general Pakistani public....and whether some ppl like it or not...but majority of ppl dont like vulgarity on our media and this was all started by Musharraf who also started this WOT, fighting against religious extremism..So..while TTP uses the name of Islam to justify their actions (although their acts are completely un Islamic).. v have Pak gov/Army saying tht v will curb religious extremism in our socety(although their acts are Islamically right...by killing those terrorists who defame Islam...Islam would also severly punish those takfiri terrorists)...but they are considered as being allied with US, fighting against Islam(yes...this is the perception of most ppl).. Ppl donot realise tht Islam strongly condemns TTP acts and thy cannot be at all considered as even humans, let alone Muslims..esp the way they behead soldiers and even ruthlessly kill innocents in suicide bombings........but ppl only believe general rhetoric of TTP...

    So the blunder, i was talking abt.. Pak govt/Army/ISPR shd have done tit for tat....they shd have used their own rhetoric against them..but v made a blunder by calling them as religious extremists.. V shd have clearly exposed them in front of the general public tht they are foreign backed terrorists..who have their roots in Indian consulates in Afghanistan and our interior ministry, even ISPR shd have been more proactive to negate their propaganda ..but v didnt..V shd have clearly they are backed by foreign powers in Afghanistan..and have their support..just when our army did operation in Swat.. NATO forces left the bordering areas free and vacated the border areas and these terrorists then conveniently took refuge in Kunar, Nuristan..So the NATO forces made it so easy for TTP..tht while Pak army was fighting TTP, NATO forces indirectly supported them..and many other things which could easily expose TTP as being foreign backed but v didnt..so v allowed general public to believe their baseless propaganda tht Pak Army is fighting them to please US.. So while they blame Pak Army of being allies of CIA, our Army/gov shd have exposed them tht it is actually TTP who are foreign backed terrorists i-e backed by CIA/RAW , to create unrest in Pakistan and defame Islam.. If v had taken this route..and exposed them of being backed by CIA/RAW..and then explained tht look even their acts are completely un Islamic as Islam doesnt allow killings of innocents..then perception of general public would have been completely different and there would be more social acceptability for Army instead of TTP...but v kept repeating religious extremism, religious extremism which extremely worked against Army, and in favor of TTP..Ppl said..look Musharraf himself was so much secular..he didnt care abt Islam at all...so he actually did this to root out Islam from our society .. Whether ppl believe it or not, but if someone like Zia ul Haq was in Musharraf's place..and he had started the war against TTP...ppl would have supported him..bcoz ppl wud have believd him tht TTP are actually against Islam..and tht Pak is not fighting this war against Islam... Now pllzzz ppl ..esp Indians ..plz dont start all tht again...tht its actually Zia ul Haq..who is responsible for all this mess .....and blah blah.. If u dont consider my thinking...correct..then plzz ignore this post.....V let our ppl fall into the baseless propaganda of TTP and didnt counter the propaganda of TTP effectively .V didnt expose them of being backed by CIA/RAW....and hence are paying the price
     
  6. VCheng

    VCheng ELITE MEMBER

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    Hint taken. I have said all I wanted to say here. :D
     
  7. uahmed

    uahmed FULL MEMBER

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    The acceptability of Taliban and their ideology should really not come be surprise. The very existence of this group is due to this acceptance. The support from society comes in different flavors. There are active supporters of their goals and methods (may not be high in number). There are those that identify with their cause and are willing to overlook methods. Those that are sympathetic to their ideas. And then there is the group who willingly looks away by choosing to believe any of the available conspiracy theories.

    The acceptance is higher in KPK compared with other provinces (many factors behind that) and that's the precise reason why they were able to easily take over some of that area.

    Any armed movement in the history (however violent that may be) has goals that resonate with local population as it needs basic things like manpower, finances, places to gather and to hide. Then needs aim to motivate own organization. The cause can be religious, nationalist, separatist, communist / anti-communist, anarchist, anti-government.

    In Pakistan, we will see these groups with different names continue to exist and thrive as long as the society continues to provide that support.
     
  8. Armstrong

    Armstrong PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

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    Rora, tou eik dum defensive mode mein kiyun chalaa jaataa hai ? :cry:

    I wasn't righting off the Pukhtoons are anything like that; I said in the same OP & the subsequent ones that I've seen this 'soft spot or empathy for the Taliban' across the ethnic spectrum & the social strata of Pakistan. Granted that I haven't met hundreds of Pashtuns to form an opinion, I've met thousands of Punjabis (ethnic or otherwise) & I've met a few dozen Pashtuns (from family to friends) to have this impressed upon me that the empathy for the Taliban is much higher amongst both groups than I thought possible; it didn't come across as if these were isolated examples in a pool of Pro-Army, Anti-Extremism crowd - its the other way around ! If you were to walk with me in Lahore & talk to the average guy....I could bet a plate of Nihari too you :-)D) that every 4th guy who'd be willing to talk would share similar sentiments about the Taliban & the Army. That is problematic. The reason I mentioned the Pasthuns was that I was dumb-founded that how could there be elements amongst them (everyone that my Dad talked to & most that I've talked to) who were Pro-Talib & Anti-Army & FC....the Pashtuns are the ones worst effected by the Taliban & their atrocities - That just didn't add up for me...I just couldn't understand that ! I'm not being racist if thats how its coming across...you know me better that !

    As for us not understanding the Pashtun Culture - Indeed we should ! And in many ways the sensibilities of particular aspects of the Pashtun & the Baloch culture have been learned more in these past 10 years then in the 65 combined because adversity has an intrinsic urge to make you listen. We should strive to understand each others languages & cultures for better cohesion as a Nation & to give space to each other to express themselves in their ethnic & linguistic identification.
     
  9. niaz

    niaz PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    Remember Shahbaz Sharif

    CM Shahbaz wants Taliban to spare Punjab | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia | DAWN.COM

    He said

    Quote
    “Gen Musharraf planned a bloodbath of innocent Muslims at the behest of others only to prolong his rule, but we in the PML-N opposed his policies and rejected dictation from abroad and if the Taliban are also fighting for the same cause then they should not carry out acts of terror in Punjab (where the PML-N is ruling),” he said at a seminar held here on Sunday to commemorate the services of late Mufti Muhammad Hussain Naeemi.

    The chief minister said that extremism and terrorism were the result of wrong policies of the Musharraf regime and the country was now paying a heavy price for those policies.
    Unquote

    To a simple minded person such as me, it implies that it is alright for TTP to bomb other provinces but not Punjab.

    Jamaat Islami is in constant state of denial. Despite the fact that Qari Hussain, cousin of the TTP head Hakimullah Mahsud and known as the trainer of suicide bombers, threatened further attacks against the security forces and law-enforcement agencies. He said the suicide bombings and other attacks would be carried out and there would be no let-up in this campaign. JI Chief Munawawr Hassan insists that Taliban had not attacked GHQ but it was US & India.

    Syed Munawwar Hasan | Real Pak Nationalists

    Oxford educated Imran Khan also declines to condemn TTP by name.

    Imran Khan, knowingly or unknowingly ‘Taliban’ Khan – The Express Tribune Blog

    I agree that Taliban are terrorist and terrorism or suicide bombing has nothing to do with Islam. However, as long as such prominent Pakistani continue to spread confusion in the minds of ordinary Pakistanis, social acceptability of Taliban ideology in Pakistan will carry on increasing.
     
  10. Armstrong

    Armstrong PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

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    @niaz : Sir, I can understand where you're coming from (I'd disagree in the Imran Khan thing but lets reserve that for another discourse) & the implications both such politicking & timidity has for the Taliban being viewed through a confused prism. However what I do not understand is how can we have such short memories ? And how can we then go one step further to weave together the most confounding conspiracy theories to explain away some of the things that they've done ? I can understand how a lay man who has been exposed to this politicking by the Islamist Parties or others can begrudgingly accept the Taliban as a fact of life despite knowing full well the things they've been up to wherever & whenever they were in power but I can't for the life of me understand the enthusiasm that I've seen at time whereby a romanticization of Mullah Omar & his cadre is done & he & his ilk are exalted to a level comparable to the simplicity, piety, justice & fair play that was the hall-mark of the reign of the First 4 Caliphs of Islam & even otherwise when any subsequent Caliph (Ruler) came who was worth that title. How can we be so utterly blind ?

    I can understand some of the grievances of those who lost their loved ones in both the First Afghan Jihad (a miscalculation of monstrous proportion by us !) & are able to see parallels between that & now the American presence on Afghan soil. I can also understand how they'd pin accountability on the Army's head even though I disagree with it. What I can't understand is that how can you sympathize with an enemy, never mind understanding their view point, who'd either kidnap you're loved one for ransom, blow themselves up near you without a moment's hesitation & cut off the heads of those sons of the soil who are guarding the frontiers to stop either of these two things from happening to you. Understand them yes...! But why in God's name would you sympathize with them whilst demonizing the boys (the army) who are dying for you ?

    Its as if we're suffering from the Stockholm Syndrome on a mass scale ! And that is beyond frightening !
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 5, 2013
  11. Jango

    Jango MODERATOR

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    I hope these TTP apologists see that 12 year old boy lying on the ground with a 5kg bomb to his chest, and intoxicated, his face color going white and the boy clearly confused.

    How can someone have a level of affection for sick minded people who kidnap 9 year olds, and convert them into suicide bombers at the age of 12.

    How can you justify sending 12 year olds with 5 kg strapped to their body?
     
  12. LeGenD

    LeGenD ELITE MEMBER

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    So it took a visit of your (good) dad to these regions to convince you to finally accept this fact?

    I figured this out long ago without even the need to visit these regions.

    For those who are unaware, just read the book from Mullah Abdul Salam Zaeef. It contains lot of revelations.

    Pro (Afghan) Taliban sentiments are specially strong within the Pashtun populace of both Afghanistan and Pakistan.

    Also, you will be surprised, if you think that highly educated Pakistani dislike (Afghan) Taliban in general. Many do not.

    Even TTP movement is also from within Pakistan; particularly Tribal regions. Here is excellent read about TTP: http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publications/Reports2010/RP2010-12-Tehrik-e-Taliban_web.pdf
     
  13. niaz

    niaz PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    I am with you sir.

    I am a Muslim as well as would love to have an Islamic Emirates on the lines of Rashideen, especially that of Hazrat Omer (RA). However I also believe that Rashideen Caliphs went thru a cleansing of soul because of their association with the person of our holy Prophet (PBUH). Which is not possible today.

    Islamic emirate of today will certainly be headed by ignorant and bigoted mullahs and spell nothing but disaster for the Muslim ummah. Lacking the inspiration of the Rashideen, Amirul Mominen of today a would try pull the country back into dark ages. This was the case in Mullah Omer Afghanistan, where TV, Radio and tape records were banned. Medicine was non existent and women executed in football fields.

    Try explaining this to the brainwashed Taliban and their supporters!
     
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  14. Armstrong

    Armstrong PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

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    Conviction - No ! I'm not passing judgements over here. I was simply sharing my thoughts & the confusion it had bred.
     
  15. LeGenD

    LeGenD ELITE MEMBER

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    Confusion, my friend, is due to lack of awareness of 'ground realities' in this regard within the Pakistani populace residing in provinces other then Balochistan and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa.

    Pakistani media sources also do not reveal much and instead toe the official propaganda in this regard due to sensitive nature of this topic.