• Saturday, December 7, 2019

Social Acceptability of the Talib & the Talib Ideology !

Discussion in 'Pakistan's Internal Security' started by Armstrong, Nov 22, 2012.

  1. Armstrong

    Armstrong PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

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    Yaraa first off it didn't come across as 'begrudgingly accepting the Taliban because the alternative was far too worse'. It came across as 'enthusiastic support' & I don't understand how could such a view exist however much the army surrenders.

    Secondly, the army fought in Swat, they fought in Bajaur, in Khurram, in Mohmand, in South Waziristan & in whichever agency remained - Where exactly did they surrender ? They fought...they bled & they died ! Where the army didn't pursue those who beheaded our soldiers was not due to a lack of want but rather because we can't cross the international borderline & pursue them in Afghanistan on account of three things : 1) Not allowing the Americans on Pakistani soil or opposing the drone strikes hinges on that very concept that we're arguing for - Sovereignty. 2) What if that escalates into the ANA or worse the Americans coming in & us having a small though significant confrontation. And 3) What if the Afghan Taliban who until now haven't targeted us get slain in the process in those areas & gang up on us with the TTP ! So the stakes are too high & the Army has to factor in so...so many things ! We're broke...we can't continue fighting & we're plunged in this war we'd not be allowed to sustain it to begin with both on the human resource & the economic fronts.
     
  2. Masterio92

    Masterio92 FULL MEMBER

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    Perhaps the people your Dad have interacted with are those who might have been relieved under Taliban's fast justice and disgusted with the justice system under Political Agent?
     
  3. rubyjackass

    rubyjackass SENIOR MEMBER

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    True, they have seen and experienced Talib rule. May be it is not very far from what they consider as their values. You got disturbed by what in Talib rule? a girl getting flogged? a girl not allowed to study? May be the girl did commit something haram. As for girl's education, I don't need to tell you how even in our other rural areas, people think about it.
    Most of the people just want to live their live. They usually are willing to follow some arbitrary rules. Even our governments enforce some arbitrary rules. Here Taliban are purportedly implementing 'sharia'.

    As long as they do not disrupt the lives of people seriously, the Taliban will not lose sympathy. For one they are the sons of the soil. And then they seem to be good at their propaganda too, they had a radio channel for years(!!). And however heinous an act they commit, they seem to explain them in a message to the people.
     
  4. Thorough Pro

    Thorough Pro ELITE MEMBER

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    I have not come accross a single person who has any liking firm or border line for the Taliban or their style. In my personal opinion, and I talking with reference to Pakistan only, They are an authentic scum and should be eliminated.

    When I say eliminated I do not necessarily mean "dispatched" because "Taliban" is not something physical its a "mindset". We need to address the causes that make people attracted towards that, and in my opinioin it basically starts with anti-US, anti-west feelings/emotions sprouting out of of frustration, anger and helpless ness in the backdroop of negative US activities in Pakistan (drone strikes, attackon civilian/millitary, negative spy/agent activities like RD, Pakistan bashing statements by US officials, etc) and against Islam like peeing on dead muslims, Quran burning, disrespect of Holy Prophet, maing fun of islamic ways etc)

    When people think that governmnet is not doing anything against such negative things against Pakistan and Islam by US/West they get attracted to anti-Us/ anti-West propaganda by the extremist groups.

    This can be addressed by GOP taking a firm stand on such issue and registering strong protests with the relavent. Keeping quite makes GOP appear as complacent with the US and west and results in anger and frustration of general masses.

    I strongly believe a vast majority of Pakistani has a lot of respect for PA and will always look towards them as their saviours and start expecting too much from PA and expect the Fauji's to resolve even the political and economical issues.

    I significant portion of populatin who are politicaly motivated and blinded by polital alliances are anti-army because their political leadership, either to appear strong or to fullfil their foreign masters agenda, targets millitary.

    A lot of mistakes made by Musharraf also helped create a negative image about army which included allowing US to carry oput drone strikes from within Pakistan and lying to public that these attackes happpened without it's knowledge or acknowledgement, Lal Masjid incident, killing Bugti, sacking CJ Iftikhar, backing MQM in May 12 violence, etc, etc.

    Most people do realize that PA is the glue which bonds the nation together, is the only institute in Pakistan which is disciplined and has courage and foresight to safeguard Pakistans interest. People do realize that US can easily control our politicians who will readily sell their mothers for a few dollars or US visas for their family, but they can not control Army and they know to destroy Pakistan they need to create rift between the Army and the Public and they are working on at agenda. The memo gate, bashing PA and ISI, recent attacks by CJ towards army are all part of the same drive.

    Its upto masses to understand and act mature and not play inn the hands of oppotunist polotical parties.The need to look at what is happening around them,specially in the muslim world. How they have turned people agsint governments and their forces and those nations are now busy killing each other. Look at how mercilessly Iraqis were mascared, look at how Afghani's are being mascared, look at what is happening in Bahrain and Lybia and Seyria.

    There are a lot of armed groups in Paksitan like MQM, BLA, TTP, religious extremist groups, etc which can easily be exploited by US/WEst to start a civil war, I think the only thing keeping them from it is the fear of uncontrollable instability and its possible fallout on the region and the world in the backdroop of alleged vulnerability of nuclear assets.

    We need to sensor/ban social media, youtube, pro-west/anti-state media channels and newspapers, remove anti-state poison spitting anchors.

    Top ploitical, millitary, and judiciary people should sit and resolve their issues in meeting rooms out of media and act as mature, civilized, patriotic adults.

    Sorry to many thoughts and not in laid out in an integrated manner.

    Bottom line. No! the majority of Pakistanis are not anti-army or in favour of Taliban.
     
  5. VCheng

    VCheng ELITE MEMBER

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    I would respectfully disagree.

    Much of the present anti-Americanism is intentionally ratcheted up by the Elite to divert attention of the people from their own failings, and then ratcheted down when they have obtained what they wanted (usually massive amounts of aid). It used to be India the big enemy next door. Now it is USA the big bad enemy in Afghanistan. The concept of the dangerous enemy is an old trick being used here too.
     
  6. muse

    muse PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    Recall in Laden's statement about the rider on a strong horse and how people react -- people are saying something about the lack of confidence the surrendering army has engendered in people -- you say they fought here and there and Go knows where else --question for you: Did they win? Did they do anything other than Katcha kaam?

    See, if they had done what needed to be done, when it needed to be done instead of playing political games with the politicians, the very same people would have nothing but positive to say about the army and about BEING Pakistanis -- but this surrendering army is all about playing politics. Once Zia ul Haq had said that Afghanistan must "simmer" at the right tempreture, today the surrendering army uses the same idea against Pakistan, in an effort to ensure that civilian politicians are subverted and policies the surrendering army approves are followed to the letter.

    An army that does not have honor enough to go after each and very single individual who has robbed a Pakistani citizen of his life of his property, is not an army that is going to engender confidence - we are Pakistanis, are second to none in our love and admiration of our Fauji - but the Fauj's job is to protect us and to win our battles and wars - when it does not even have honor enough to simply do it's sworn duty, then people make their own deals in their hearts and minds to make themselves secure.


    Blaming Americans and ANA and Sovereignty and such are really canards, red herrings, if you will - after all who let them escape across the border??Who refuses to tackle them in NWA?? Soon the American involvement in AFG will change - but if the surrendering army's ethic is not change, where by it asserts it's DUTY to protect Pakistanis lives and property and vigorously asserts that it accepts it's responsibility in Pakistan, you can expect more and more people leaving it behind - the surrendering army will either get with the program, Protect Pakistanis and their property, or it will simply become just one more faction in a civil war. So little credibility does this surrendering army have, that some can be forgiven for wondering if that is not just what they are planning.


    As for effective Talib courts in the mountains -- indeed it must be their proximity to mountains that contributes to their effectiveness, Mr. Justice Chaudary please take note.
     
  7. Thorough Pro

    Thorough Pro ELITE MEMBER

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    You are entitled to your opinion, people in Pakistan are not subjected to state controlled propaganda media.they get a a well balanced, rounded view on all issues and are very knowledgable in political sense. Pakistanis do not forget humiliation.

     
  8. Sugarcane

    Sugarcane ELITE MEMBER

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    General people view the news of Drone-Attacks killing civilian, Ramond Devis murdering their fallows, ISAF killing our soldiers, US threatening to dismantle our nukes, giving bribes (AIDS) to corrupts, not doing anything against TTP- all these things are not planted by elite
     
  9. VCheng

    VCheng ELITE MEMBER

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    Pakistanis have been humiliated relentlessly for the last forty years Sir, not by any foreigner, but by their own. And please do not be offended, but I am quite sure they can be humiliated for another fifty years and not even blink an eye.

    Wake up and smell the coffee.

    No? Your own Elite have given permission and made secret deals that have led to all those things, and yet you blame the foreigners, not those who are truly responsible.

    And yes, the Elite includes the Army and the politicos and the bureaucrats. Equally.
     
  10. Xeric

    Xeric PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    Say thanks to pseudo-Pakistanis, a few of them whom we also have around here on PDF - this is specific to the anti-military syndrome that prevails all around and not necessarily to the pro Talib stances as displayed by the locals.

    Hint: Yep, these guys do act funny every now and then with their mocking and flaming attitude.

    On a serious note, in Pakistan, the farther you go away from big cities, the more is the liking for the Army. That's because these guys have witnessed our sacrifices, those others who were born and brought up at the expense of others will never get it and hence the persistent moaning.
     
  11. Sugarcane

    Sugarcane ELITE MEMBER

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    Except drone attacks (as public is now aware of the fact and is also against our elite in this matter) i am not aware of any secret deal to allow CIA agents to kill people in Bazar or giving go ahead to ISAF to kill our soldiers or any secret deal to train & support TTP to attack back on Pakistanis and Army itself. And for AID you can go to any place in Pakistan and ask the public all are against it but still US keeps bribing corrupt elite (and yes Jurnails included)
     
  12. Thorough Pro

    Thorough Pro ELITE MEMBER

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    or treated like one!

    If you havn't seen poverty, disease,hunger, humiliation, then you won't understand. Don't be an ignorant. Why do educated people in Karachi blindly support MQM's mafia like terrorist activities? becaus ethey are made to believe through false propaganda that they are deprived............ don't be an ignorant and try to understand the problem.

    Except forthe foreign elements, these are the same poeople who lived here quite peacefully and honourable before this "War" started. People of swat were one of the most hospitable, decent, and simple people in the whole of Pakistan. No they were not vicious animals, No! they are not vicious animals. problem is much deeper and complex than you make it sound.

    I do think Afghan Taliban and TTP are different, we are not discussing Afghan Taliban here. TTP was formed by Baitullah Mehsood,an afghan after he was released from Guantanamobay prison.I firmly believe the TTP is US sponsored pressure group, which has successfully exploited the social injustice through propaganda and become quite strong. There is no doubt in my mind that it as a SCUM and must be eliminated and at the same time potential target population for their propaganda should be educated / made aware that TTP is a wolf in sheep skin.
     
  13. niaz

    niaz PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    After more than a decade of war followed by inter Mujahedeen strife, Taliban heralded a welcome period of peace and stability in Afghanistan.

    Main opponents of the Pashtun Taliban opponents were Northern Alliance consisting Tajiks, Hazara and Uzbeks. Pakhtunwali or Pashtunwali tribal code implies that fellow Pashtun must be cared for; Badal or revenge must be extracted and hospitality and sanctuary given to the guests. It is therefore logical to expect inherent partiality of Pashtun belt towards Taliban when they are fighting non Pashtun.

    Pashtun are also inherently religious. Majority of the laws instituted by Mullah Omer’ Taliban regime were essentially Pashtun tribal laws presented as Islamic Sharia. When you combine this with the tribal Pashtun traditions, popular support for Taliban among the non-educated Pashtun is virtually guaranteed.

    Taliban have declared openly that their aim is to establish an Islamic emirate on the lines of early Islamic state. No Allah fearing Muslim would go against what he/she thinks are the divine laws of Sharia and if one truly believes that Taliban strictly follow Islamic laws, he/she will support Taliban cause and will refuse to believe any act attributed to Taliban even though they admit it. I have heard Fareed Paracha of JI and another JUI spokesman on the TV talk shows that they don’t believe this was done by Taliban. When confronted by the fact that TTP have claimed responsibility, reply was that anyone can pick up the phone claiming he is TTP spokesman, how can we be sure?

    I have found Taliban support in quite a few Punjabis as well. I spent 8 years in UAE and found that many of the Pakistani clerks, shop workers, restaurant owners did not believe that evil deeds attributed to TTP were actually done by them. Once I was told by one compatriot from Sialkot (he had special affinity with me as I had lived in Sialkot Cant’t for some time in the early 50’s) ‘Sahib, aap akhbaar mein likhay per kyoun yaqeen kar latey hain, Taliban mussalman hain, wo aisa zulm nahin kar saktay’ meaning why you believe what you read in the news papers, Taliban are Muslim, they can never be so cruel. This is not limited to the poor and the less educated. Rana Sana Ullah makes no secret of his close relations with SSP. Even the Oxford educated Imran Khan harbours a soft spot for Taliban.

    Initial Taliban leadership was not scholarly and had little more than village mullah level education. However infusion of Al Qaida intellectuals from Egypt enabled Taliban to exploit empathy of Islam to the full. Taliban have succeeded in winning hearts and minds of a section of Pakistan population including Pakistan polity.

    Only way to tackle this problem is thru media opinion makers, regret to say that there are too many Taliban sympathizers among TV anchors as well. You would have also noticed that quite a few of members of this forum dismiss my posts as shenanigans of a liberal fascist. Forum members are from intelligent and educated class. This shows that Taliban ideology has become acceptable at all levels.

    I am afraid that Pakistan may well be too far advanced on her way towards becoming a Sunni Wahhabi theocratic state to change her direction.
     
  14. Thorough Pro

    Thorough Pro ELITE MEMBER

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    This whole TTP and extremism is the "coffee" we Pakistani society is smelling right now and it is the result of that 40 year of humiliation. What else do you think is the root cause..
     
  15. muse

    muse PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    Nothing succeeds like success (Pak Fauj U listening) and let me tell you that that the only thing that works is making the insurgent DEAD.


    Media are much hyped as opinion makers, but in a place like Pakistan, it's what people experience that makes their opinion - when they experience the Pakistan Army succeeding, you will see a huge change in the media, in society - what the people are waiting for is to see whether someone can stand up to this and defeat it - Can that be the Pak Fauj? For such an eventuality the ethic of the Pak Fauj must change, can it do this?