What's new

Since 2000s IAF has lost 30 4th gen fighters compared to PAF 3

Myth_buster_1

ELITE MEMBER
Mar 17, 2008
8,513
2
7,905
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
Since 2000 IAF (excluding INAF) has lost 30 4th generation fighter jets
9 Mig-29
10 Mirage-2000
11 Su-30
from 360 4th generation fighters inventory.

Thats 1 crash for every 11 jets

Compared to PAF

1 JF-17
2 F-16
From 200 4th gen

1 crash for every 66!

PAF clearly has much better record then IAF.
_____________________

UPDATE:



Despite sanctions on Pakistan in 1990s PAF managed to clock 270+ hours per F-16 from 1994 to 2005. This has significantly increased knowing PAF has sufficient spare parts supply after new F-16 deal.

F-16 Fighting Falcon News
Pakistani F-16s reach 100,000 accident free flight hours


October 4, 2005 (by Asif Shamim) - A three-member delegation of Pratt & Whitney called on Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat, Chief of the Air Staff Pakistan Air Force at Air Headquarters to present a plaque to the Chief of the Air Staff in recognition of flying the F-16, for over 100,000 accident-free flight hours.

Lloyd W. "Fig" Newton, executive vice president, presented a plaque to the Chief of the Air Staff in recognition of flying the F-16, for over 100,000 accident-free flight hours.

They also commended the maintenance, quality control and flight safety standards of the PAF, which made this achievement possible.

Retired Gen. Lloyd Newton, along with Gen. (R) William J Begert, Vice President and Warren Boley, Vice President, remained with Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Sadaat, Chief of Air Staff for some time and discussed matters pertaining to mutual and professional interest.



Here is something interesting

So IAF Su-30 total service life is just 6000 hours

For 30 years in service would be 200 hours per year
or 40 years of service would be just 150.


https://www.business-standard.com/a...-hal-s-growing-capability-114102300636_1.html
A Su-30MKI is overhauled after flying 1,500 hours or 14 years, whichever is earlier. Over its total service life of 6,000 flying hours or 30-40 years, each fighter undergoes three overhauls. Eventually, the IAF's fleet of 272 Su-30MKIs will undergo 816 overhauls - three per fighter.
 
Last edited:

Baba_Yaga

FULL MEMBER
Mar 1, 2020
684
-18
693
Country
India
Location
Canada
Since 2000 IAF (excluding INAF) has lost 30 4th generation fighter jets from 4
9 Mig-29
10 Mirage-2000
11 Su-30
from 360 4th generation fighters inventory.

Thats 1 crash for every 11 jets

Compared to PAF

1 JF-17
2 F-16
From 200 4th gen

1 crash for every 66!

PAF clearly has much better record then IAF.
There is no doubt PAF has a better record but your analysis is too simplistic. 360 and 200 jets is the inventory as of today I believe. Did you possess 200 4th gen jets in 2000? Highly doubtful. If you possessed barely any 4th generation jets in the early 2000s and then bought them in 2010 or something, analysis will highly be skewed, since you can't crash jets that you don't have. The only way to see the real crash rate is to see how 4th gen aircraft inventory for both airforces evolved from 2000 to 2020 - how many were owned in 2000, 2001,2002 and how many crashed that year. Also important is how old these aircraft were. Our mig 29s and Mirage 2000s were acquired in the 80s and 90s. Obviously a 30 year old aircraft will crash more than the JF17 which was acquired from 2009 onwards.
 
Last edited:

Myth_buster_1

ELITE MEMBER
Mar 17, 2008
8,513
2
7,905
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
There is no doubt PAF has a better record but your analysis is too simplistic. 360 and 200 jets is the inventory as of today I believe. Did you possess 200 4th gen jets in 2000? Highly doubtful. If you possessed barely any 4th generation jets in the early 2000s and then bought them in 2010 or something, analysis will highly be skewed, since you can't crash jets that you don't have. The only way to see the real crash rate is to see how 4th gen aircraft inventory for both airforces evolved from 2000 to 2020 - how many were owned in 2000, 2001,2002 and how many crashed that year. Also important is how old these aircraft were. Our mig 29s and Mirage 2000s were acquired in the 80s and 90s. Obviously a 30 year old aircraft will crash more than the JF17 which was acquired from 2009 onwards.
LOL
F-16s in 2000s were 4th generation as much as Mirage-2000 and Mig-29 which were all acquired in 1980s and JF-17 and Su-30 induction started around same time in mid 2000s.
So your counter argument is flawed.
 
Last edited:

GriffinsRule

SENIOR MEMBER
Nov 18, 2015
2,505
5
3,665
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
Both these methodologies are incorrect, but this looks like a useless feel good thread anyways.
Figure out how many crashes have happened per flight hour of the 4th gen aircraft in both the air forces for a correct comparison.
 

Yaseen1

ELITE MEMBER
Apr 1, 2014
9,408
-5
8,723
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
i think in future our f16s crash may rise if we not upgrade them as they will become older,I hope Paf is negotiating with u.s for their upgrade so repute of this one of the best u.s fighter jet not damages in world
 

Mighty Lion

BANNED
Oct 3, 2018
1,740
-11
1,297
Country
India
Location
India
Since 2000 IAF (excluding INAF) has lost 30 4th generation fighter jets
9 Mig-29
10 Mirage-2000
11 Su-30
from 360 4th generation fighters inventory.

Thats 1 crash for every 11 jets

Compared to PAF

1 JF-17
2 F-16
From 200 4th gen

1 crash for every 66!

PAF clearly has much better record then IAF.
Four wrong data (In both Mirage 2000 incident of Oct 2004 & Su-30 incident of Apr 2012 the jets were fully repaired & got back into service). Also only 7 M2000 crashes have been recorded since 2000 (3 in 2004, 1 in 2007, 2 in 2012 & 1 in 2019)
So correct figure is 26.

Also 2 JF-17s have crashed not one.
(Nov 2011 & Oct 2016).

Nonethless it makes no sense to calculate from 2000 instead of 1985-86 from where both countries started operating 4th gen jets:

Real Comparison:

Now India has accquired a total of 470 4th gen jets as of Nov 2019 ( 268 Su-30s, 125 MiG-29 incl. 29Ks, 59 Mirage 200, 20 Tejas) and 41 4th gen crashes incl. Navy which means the crash rate is only 8.7% of fleet strength.

Pakistan accquired around 85 F-16s & 122 JF-17 (total 207) and 12 4th gen crashes so crash rate is 5.8% of fleet strength.
A very minor difference considering that US made planes have a much better safety standards and reliability than Russian ones.
 

dbc

PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST
Feb 1, 2009
4,242
11
4,546
Country
United States
Location
United States
Real Comparison:

Now India has accquired a total of 470 4th gen jets as of Nov 2019 ( 268 Su-30s, 125 MiG-29 incl. 29Ks, 59 Mirage 200, 20 Tejas) and 41 4th gen crashes incl. Navy which means the crash rate is only 8.7% of fleet strength.

Pakistan accquired around 85 F-16s & 122 JF-17 (total 207) and 12 4th gen crashes so crash rate is 5.8% of fleet strength.
A very minor difference considering that US made planes have a much better safety standards and reliability than Russian ones.
Your “real comparison” is seriously flawed because Pakistan did not induct all 85 F16s at the same time - ditto for Indian Su30s.

the only meaningful comparison is accidents per flight hour.
 

Mighty Lion

BANNED
Oct 3, 2018
1,740
-11
1,297
Country
India
Location
India
Your “real comparison” is seriously flawed because Pakistan did not induct all 85 F16s at the same time - ditto for Indian Su30s.

the only meaningful comparison is accidents per flight hour.
Indeed flight hours is best comparion for crashes but since we do not have flying hours data for 4th gen fleet of Both air forces in public ,our only available metric is to compare them on fleet strength.
 

Myth_buster_1

ELITE MEMBER
Mar 17, 2008
8,513
2
7,905
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
Four wrong data (In both Mirage 2000 incident of Oct 2004 & Su-30 incident of Apr 2012 the jets were fully repaired & got back into service). Also only 7 M2000 crashes have been recorded since 2000 (3 in 2004, 1 in 2007, 2 in 2012 & 1 in 2019)
So correct figure is 26.

Also 2 JF-17s have crashed not one.
(Nov 2011 & Oct 2016).

Nonethless it makes no sense to calculate from 2000 instead of 1985-86 from where both countries started operating 4th gen jets:

Real Comparison:

Now India has accquired a total of 470 4th gen jets as of Nov 2019 ( 268 Su-30s, 125 MiG-29 incl. 29Ks, 59 Mirage 200, 20 Tejas) and 41 4th gen crashes incl. Navy which means the crash rate is only 8.7% of fleet strength.

Pakistan accquired around 85 F-16s & 122 JF-17 (total 207) and 12 4th gen crashes so crash rate is 5.8% of fleet strength.
A very minor difference considering that US made planes have a much better safety standards and reliability than Russian ones.
Genius, did IAF have 260 Su-30 and 20 Tejas in 1980s and 1990s?
also untill 2018 IAF Su-30 airworthy rate was only 60% (not that it has improved any better) so attrition rate is even worst after that.
 

Myth_buster_1

ELITE MEMBER
Mar 17, 2008
8,513
2
7,905
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
Epic fail, PAF also did not have 45 F-16 & 120 JF-17s in 80s & 90s.
Su-30 availabilty rate was 60% in 2016-17, it is now 72.84%.
Once an indiot always an indiot.
I specifically created this thread for attrition rate since 2000 not 1980s that you keep referring to.
 

SQ8

ADVISORS
Mar 28, 2009
34,211
357
70,156
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
It doesn’t matter - you have an enemy in the Indian who is brainwashed delusional that they are god’s gift to planet earth. Now they even have their religious leadership backing up that notion along with a huge coffer.
So they can lose all the 4th gen they want but can afford it while we cant.
Eventually even with a 3-1 kill ratio they will wear us down.
 

Mighty Lion

BANNED
Oct 3, 2018
1,740
-11
1,297
Country
India
Location
India
Once an indiot always an indiot.
I specifically created this thread for attrition rate since 2000 not 1980s that you keep referring to.
Kid, You are free to use 2000 as bench mark but I will continue using 1986 as it is the year from which both side started using 4th gen hence it is the real benchmark
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 1, Members: 0, Guests: 1)


Top Bottom