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'Serbian World': Serbia plans new Balkan Wars

Elvin

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One of the primary reasons the rs cannot secede is the Brcko District, it cuts the serb entity in half.

1200px-Brcko_District_in_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina.svg.png
 

Foinikas

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I see your point, however, the republika srpska was created on the basis of brute force through methods of ethnic cleansing and genocide, therefore, the legality of republika srpsk's existence is not credible, it implies that brute force gets rewarded. So Hungarians can do the same in Romania and receive legitimacy or Hungarians in Slovakia, or the Turks in Bulgaria, all of them, according to some, can use force to create their ethnic enclaves and receive legitimacy?

Kosovo was not created like this neither were the former republics of the SFRJ.

Also, I understand that the serbs did not want to live under croats, but they received all their rights as a national minority. They didn't want that and pursued violence. So you're saying all national minorities of 10-20% can simply use brute force to ignore the central government? If that is the case then we will see violence all over the world. What makes serbs special? I guess they are immune to the standards?
View attachment 787691

Here is an example of Bosnia in 1991, as you can see, the country serbs do not have exclusive rights to the land, neither do bosniaks or croats,. The only way is to have Bosnia be a multi-ethnic republic.
We will not agree here. Like it says in the documentary "Yugoslavia the avoidable war",western media talked as if the Serbs invaded Bosnia and took control of 3/5 of the territory,while the truth is they haf been living there for centuries.

Izetbegovic insisted on leaving the Federation even though he knew the Serbs,who were the second largest ethnic group in Bosnia,wanted to stay in Yugoslavia. He insisted on leaving.

Now the country is partitioned in two different regions with their own governments. The country barely has any unity. It's logical for them to want to leave.

And don't forget that Albanians too were brought in Kosovo by the Turks and later again by Tito and their majority is not only because of these factors,but also because after the NATO war,they persecuted and kicked most of the Serbs out.

But here's another map of Bih from 1991.



Bosnia_Herzegovina_Ethnic_1991.png
 

Elvin

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We will not agree here. Like it says in the documentary "Yugoslavia the avoidable war",western media talked as if the Serbs invaded Bosnia and took control of 3/5 of the territory,while the truth is they haf been living there for centuries.

Izetbegovic insisted on leaving the Federation even though he knew the Serbs,who were the second largest ethnic group in Bosnia,wanted to stay in Yugoslavia. He insisted on leaving.

Now the country is partitioned in two different regions with their own governments. The country barely has any unity. It's logical for them to want to leave.

And don't forget that Albanians too were brought in Kosovo by the Turks and later again by Tito and their majority is not only because of these factors,but also because after the NATO war,they persecuted and kicked most of the Serbs out.

But here's another map of Bih from 1991.



View attachment 787699
Even though serbs lived in Bosnia, they were a cumulative minority, and used brute force to create an orthodox enclave. The independence of Bosnia was simple, there was a referendum and 64% of the population in Bosnia voted to leave Yugoslavia. Serbs boycotted the referendum, but as I said they were a minority in the country consisting of 32%.

Furthermore, Bosniaks liked Yugoslavia, Tito's Yugoslavia, but the country changed and in 1990 it was not a country of equality, therefore everyone left so why should Bosnia stay? You may view Bosnia as a place that has no right to it's independence, even when the serbs are a minority.

Neighboring Serbia was the main reason for the war in Bosnia, belgrade masterminded the "greater serbia" model via their academy of sciences and culture via a paper published in 1986 calling for the centralization of Yugoslavia, and if it fails to create a greater serbia via brute force. Bosnian serbs were supported financially, logistically and with manpower constantly pouring in from neighboring serbia. Defacto Serbia waged a war against a internationally recognized republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Without Belgrade's help the Bosnian serbs would of never engaged in such hubris.

Furthermore, Bosnian serbs are different from Serbians, the accent is different, as is the overall culture and mentality of the people. Most Bosnian serbs that travel to Belgrade are called "Bosnians" by Serbians. Same goes for Bosnian croats who travel to Zagreb. Some say that Bosnian serbs are Bosniak Orthodox Christians, but o well those theories are a different discussion.

Bosnia does function, the Bosnian serbs try to block the government from functioning but it still functions. I may add, the republika srpska is much poorer than the Federation of BIH, and many people are leaving rs due to terrible economic reasons that the Bosnian serbs create via destructive policies on the national level. 76% of the Bosnian economic output is created by the FBIH entity, and through indirect taxation policies, the FBIH pays RS 400 million Euros each year meaning the rs pays less into the system and receives more. Despite this financing, the rs has budget deficits because their big serb leaders are tangled up in corruption and sold all of the entitie's assets. Do you think rs can keep itself functioning? An entity one 1 mil people of which are 270k pensioners and 290k employed persons LOL. Yes good luck.

Belgrade did not achieve their greater serbia in 1992-1995 - what makes you think they will today? Will Greece come and help? Bujrum ;).
We will not agree here. Like it says in the documentary "Yugoslavia the avoidable war",western media talked as if the Serbs invaded Bosnia and took control of 3/5 of the territory,while the truth is they haf been living there for centuries.

Izetbegovic insisted on leaving the Federation even though he knew the Serbs,who were the second largest ethnic group in Bosnia,wanted to stay in Yugoslavia. He insisted on leaving.

Now the country is partitioned in two different regions with their own governments. The country barely has any unity. It's logical for them to want to leave.

And don't forget that Albanians too were brought in Kosovo by the Turks and later again by Tito and their majority is not only because of these factors,but also because after the NATO war,they persecuted and kicked most of the Serbs out.

But here's another map of Bih from 1991.



View attachment 787699
Again proving my point, Bosnia is mixed, noone has exclusive rights to the land, and any secession is not possible. Serbs carried out a coup against the Republic of BIH and failed, today they are in our fist, they cannot leave, they have no right (apart from in their crazy minds) to leave. No way!
 
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Foinikas

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Even though serbs lived in Bosnia, they were a cumulative minority, and used brute force to create an orthodox enclave. The independence of Bosnia was simple, there was a referendum and 64% of the population in Bosnia voted to leave Yugoslavia. Serbs boycotted the referendum, but as I said they were a minority in the country consisting of 32%.
There was a war. The Serbs wanted to stay in Yugoslavia or at least have their own independent region. The Croats wanted to unite Herzegovina with Croatia. Later they allied themselves with the Bosniaks and that's it.

Furthermore, Bosniaks liked Yugoslavia, Tito's Yugoslavia, but the country changed and in 1990 it was not a country of equality, therefore everyone left so why should Bosnia stay? You may view Bosnia as a place that has no right to it's independence, even when the serbs are a minority.
I don't blame them for leaving. But I also understand the Serbs for wanting to stay in a single country.

Neighboring Serbia was the main reason for the war in Bosnia, belgrade masterminded the "greater serbia" model via their academy of sciences and culture via a paper published in 1986 calling for the centralization of Yugoslavia, and if it fails to create a greater serbia via brute force. Bosnian serbs were supported financially, logistically and with manpower constantly pouring in from neighboring serbia. Defacto Serbia waged a war against a internationally recognized republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Without Belgrade's help the Bosnian serbs would of never engaged in such hubris.
We will not agree here. Yugoslavia's breakup was the outcome of the fall of Communism,but also encouragement from Western countries. The Germans and other western Europeans wanted an independent Slovenia and Croatia,the Turks and other Muslims wanted a Bosnian Muslim State and the Americans just wanted to dissolve the whole Federation.

Bosnian serbs were supported financially, logistically and with manpower constantly pouring in from neighboring serbia. Defacto Serbia waged a war against a internationally recognized republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Without Belgrade's help the Bosnian serbs would of never engaged in such hubris.
Well of course they helped them. Wouldn't you have helped the Bosniaks in Sandzak if they declared independence?

Belgrade did not achieve their greater serbia in 1992-1995 - what makes you think they will today? Will Greece come and help? Bujrum ;).
But that's what I'm trying to tell everyone on this thread: They're not trying to make "Greater Serbia". The title of the thread is misleading. There is little political will in the Serbian government to do it and they still need the "ok" from the Americans and other big countries to do anything now. And if there was a military operation,I think that would be in Kosovo mostly.

Again proving my point, Bosnia is mixed, noone has exclusive rights to the land, and any secession is not possible. Serbs carried out a coup against the Republic of BIH and failed, today they are in our fist, they cannot leave, they have no right (apart from in their crazy minds) to leave. No way!
What I'm telling you is that there are two political entities in BiH ever since the end of the war. And the borders and administrative boundaries are clear. One is the Serb region and the other the Bosniak-Croat region. So it's like two small countries of their own already. It's not like in 1991 or 1992.

You guys had a Federation,you left,they wanted to stay,you forced them not to,they fought back to stay united with Yugoslavia,you didn't let them,now they have the right to unite with Serbia just like you left the Federation and just like the Westerners let Kosovo become independent.
 

Elvin

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There was a war. The Serbs wanted to stay in Yugoslavia or at least have their own independent region. The Croats wanted to unite Herzegovina with Croatia. Later they allied themselves with the Bosniaks and that's it.


I don't blame them for leaving. But I also understand the Serbs for wanting to stay in a single country.


We will not agree here. Yugoslavia's breakup was the outcome of the fall of Communism,but also encouragement from Western countries. The Germans and other western Europeans wanted an independent Slovenia and Croatia,the Turks and other Muslims wanted a Bosnian Muslim State and the Americans just wanted to dissolve the whole Federation.


Well of course they helped them. Wouldn't you have helped the Bosniaks in Sandzak if they declared independence?


But that's what I'm trying to tell everyone on this thread: They're not trying to make "Greater Serbia". The title of the thread is misleading. There is little political will in the Serbian government to do it and they still need the "ok" from the Americans and other big countries to do anything now. And if there was a military operation,I think that would be in Kosovo mostly.


What I'm telling you is that there are two political entities in BiH ever since the end of the war. And the borders and administrative boundaries are clear. One is the Serb region and the other the Bosniak-Croat region. So it's like two small countries of their own already. It's not like in 1991 or 1992.

You guys had a Federation,you left,they wanted to stay,you forced them not to,they fought back to stay united with Yugoslavia,you didn't let them,now they have the right to unite with Serbia just like you left the Federation and just like the Westerners let Kosovo become independent.
Yes the Croats wanted Herzegovina, but Bosnia and Herzegovina was a internationally recognized republic which means that any croatian attempt to take that land would of meant all out war against BIH. Therefore, they did not do that, however, Bosnian Croats tried to create their entity, they switched sides and ultimately lost.

Yes of course Serbs wanted to stay in SFRJ because it was defacto a large Serbia. Prior to Milosevic, Yugooslavia was a federal state with 23 million people, only 8 million were serbs, noone wanted to leave during TITO because Yugoslavia was awesome, after TITO everyone jumped ship. I understand the geopolitical changes in Europe at the time, and the west recognizing seceding republics, but trust me, the Slovenians, Croats, Bosniaks, even the Macedonians filled the streets and wanted out, no westerner forced them to do that, they did it themselves so the will to be independent was there, the west of course capitalized but the west was not the reason everyone left.

Yes Serbia did help the Bosnian serbs, I was answering your earlier statement about Serbia invading Bosnia and Herzegovina, because they did. The Yugoslav National Army dug their positions in 1991, and handed the armaments to the Bosnian serbs, while Serbian officers remained in BIH as foreign troops at that time because BIH had already seceded and was internationally recognized so yes Serbia did defacto invade BIH.

Yes there are two entities, but Bosnia is a federal country with different federal subjects. The FBIH, RS and District of Brcko, mind you the rs has no army, passport, curreny, central bank, embassies, etc. The highest court in BIH is the Bosnian constitutional court as is the national prosecutors office which has jurisdiction over all BIH territory. A good comparison are the states in Germany or the republics in Russia. There are no borders between the two entities, go to Bosnia, you won't know which entity you're in. Most people get along fine, many live in one entity and work in the other, etc. It isn't so black and white as the media portrays.

Bosnian serbs have no right to unite with Serbia, sure I see you're sympathetic to their cause but the dayton peace deal ensures that is not possible, Bosnian serbs agreed to remain in BIH, also given how mixed BIH is, serbs have no right to kill and then secede a territory. Any such action will result in war.

Don't be fooled, the greater serbia idea is still alive and well, Belgrade is launching the "serb world" or "sprski svet" which means that all serbs in the balkans will be united, again ignoring other nations, borders and peoples. This is the same concept used by Moscow as the "Russian World" or Russian sphere of influence but Serbia is tiny they have no means to do this. Russia is supporting them for sure, Russia is trying to undermine NATO and EU through the western balkans at the moment.
 

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- Albania-Kosovo should consider forming a federation. That will be another bulwark against any move by the Serbs to dominate western Balkan.
-Turks could also explore the opportunity to expand to western Thrace. Diplomatically, then can play EU against Russia card. Both sides will impose sanctions but very unliley will go to war on behalf of the Greeks. Access to Black Sea is vital and both the sides would want to maintain a workable relation with the Turks. This in turn will allow them (Turks) a greater say in western Balkans and and help counter Serbian ambitions.
 
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Char

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- Albania-Kosovo should consider forming a federation. That will be another bulwark against any move by the Serbs to dominate western Balkan.
-Turks could also explore the opportunity to expand to western Thrace. Diplomatically, then can play EU against Russia card. Both sides will impose sanctions but very unliley will go to war on behalf of the Greeks. Access to Black Sea is vital and both the sides would want to maintain a workable relation with the Turks. This in turn will allow them (Turks) a greater say in western Balkans and and help counter Serbian ambitions.
You should not turn around after complaining about Israel’s occupation of Palestine and want to violate Serbia’s sovereignty. This is the same as the double standard of the West, and you are not as powerful as the West.
 

Foinikas

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- Albania-Kosovo should consider forming a federation. That will be another bulwark against any move by the Serbs to dominate western Balkan.
-Turks could also explore the opportunity to expand to western Thrace. Diplomatically, then can play EU against Russia card. Both sides will impose sanctions but very unliley will go to war on behalf of the Greeks. Access to Black Sea is vital and both the sides would want to maintain a workable relation with the Turks. This in turn will allow them (Turks) a greater say in western Balkans and and help counter Serbian ambitions.
So you want to see Turks get Western Thrace.

The U.S. doesn't want Kosovo to be annexed by Albania.
 

thetutle

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Muslim countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Indonesia are getting overcrowded with very less opportunities for poor people. There is so much corruption in Muslim countries. Albania, Bosnia and Kosovo has less population and lots of resources. These countries need to open immigration to Muslims from other countries.
Bosnia needs massive immigration from these countries. It is losing people as its citizens are moving to the EU to find better paid jobs. It is very easy to move to Bosnia and get a permanent visa. But I am not sure these immigrants will find well paying jobs. The best jobs will go to locals and these immigrants will have to work in jobs that pay maybe 400 Euros per month. Thats not much, especially knowing the migrants can travel 100 kilometres north and get the same job in Austria and get 1,500 euro per month.

I would personally love immigrants from Pakistan, Bangladesh and Indonesia. And the way the country is becoming empty, we will need them. For example, there is one municipality (Bosanski Petrovac) which is 709 square kilometres, thats like the size of Singapore and its covered in such green pastures, forests and streams, and it has 7,000 inhabitants. There is another one that only has 3,000 people and over 1,000 square kilometres, its called (Glamoč). Its even situated 15km from the EU border. You dont even need a job, you can live off the land, lush green grass, water. Anyone could make money herding and breeding sheep there.

These places and most of the country is totally empty and can support a massive population. I would definitely encourage immigration.
 

thetutle

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When South Slavic people have created the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes after WW1 they thought they will live together forever.
South slavic people didnt create anything. After France and UK won WW I, they stole land from Austria and gave it to Serbia to create a fake kingdom with a fake Serbian king, who was pig farmer until recently. This fake kingdom was called Yugoslavia, and the stolen Austrian lands were Called Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia.

No one in any of these countries wanted to be ruled by the Serbian pig farming fake king.
 

thetutle

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You guys had a Federation,you left,they wanted to stay,you forced them not to,they fought back to stay united with Yugoslavia,you didn't let them,now they have the right to unite with Serbia just like you left the Federation and just like the Westerners let Kosovo become independent.
They have the right to join Serbia if they are strong enough. Thats the only thing that decides these things.

They are a 30% of Bosnia's population now and getting smaller every year. They will not in our lifetime have the power and strength to break away and join Serbia. If Serbia helps them, then others will join the fight, like Turkey, because we can't beat Serbia alone.

And Serbia will never help them with full force. The most Serbia could do they already did in the last war and that was not enough for them to break away. So the Citizens of Bosnia who are of Orthodox religion (and currently claim Serbian ethnicity), will, unfortunately for them, have to stay in Bosnia.
You should not turn around after complaining about Israel’s occupation of Palestine and want to violate Serbia’s sovereignty. This is the same as the double standard of the West, and you are not as powerful as the West.
I think its very valid to protest against Israel, and violate Serbia's sovereignty. In fact anyone that violates Serbia's sovereignty deserves a medal.

So you want to see Turks get Western Thrace.
I would love it if turks get western Thrace. Why should Thrace be divided into east and west. Unite Thrace! Free movement of people within Thrace.
 
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Char

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I think its very valid to protest against Israel, and violate Serbia's sovereignty. In fact anyone that violates Serbia's sovereignty deserves a medal.
Today is not 20 years ago. Serbia has the support of Russia and China. I don’t believe NATO dared to start a war in Serbia.

You are so arrogant, why don't you violate the sovereignty of Israel instead of protesting?
 

Foinikas

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I would love it if turks get western Thrace. Why should Thrace be divided into east and west. Unite Thrace! Free movement of people within Thrace.
Why don't you invite those Muslims from Thrace who support Turkey to immigrate to Bosnia?
This fake kingdom was called Yugoslavia, and the stolen Austrian lands were Called Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia.
Are you sure you're a Bosnian? And also a Muslim?
 

thetutle

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Today is not 20 years ago. Serbia has the support of Russia and China. I don’t believe NATO dared to start a war in Serbia.
Russian troops are 900 km from Serbia and Chinese troops are 4300 km from Serbia. with many nato countries in between. Not even Serbia is stupid enough to think they can help them. And NATO never starts any war in Serbia, it only finishes the war by bombing them and taking some of their land.

You are so arrogant, why don't you violate the sovereignty of Israel instead of protesting?
Why and how would I violate Israels sovereignty. You have 350 million Arabs that can do that if they want who are right next to them. Don't you think Bosnians have more important problems to deal with?

Why don't you invite those Muslims from Thrace who support Turkey to immigrate to Bosnia?
I support and encourage muslims from Thrace to migrate to Bosnia if they want. The are welcome.

Are you sure you're a Bosnian? And also a Muslim?
Totally Bosnian, why does it matter? Is my view worth any less if I was from another country? Bosnians have nothing against greeks in general, unless they support Serbia in their aggression, or unless they fight against turkey. And its hard to gauge how many do this. maybe half the country?
 

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