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SECOND TYPE 054 A/P FRIGATE PNS TAIMUR COMMISSIONED AT CHINA| June 2022 .

Genghis khan1

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First of all, Pakistan have a very limited coastline compare to India, which mean unless PN buy ship and dock them in China (which will be a day or 2 to get to Pakistan if war broke out between India and Pakistan, if at all because they would have to go over Indian coast to get there) You put a big ship in limited coast, you basically just put a giant target on your back. You can't go unnoticed when you operate a 15000 tons ship off the coast of Pakistan, Indian satellite will pick that up in a heartbeat.

Small relative to what? 1000 km coastlines isn’t small by any stretch of imagination for a 440 ft boat. Indian Oceans alone is way too big for any Navy in the world.
 

jhungary

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Small relative to what? 1000 km coastlines isn’t small by any stretch of imagination for a 440 ft boat. Indian Oceans alone is way too big for any Navy in the world.
1000km is small........

Not sure if you had use satellite before, you can cover that with 3 or 4 satellites (Depends on resolution) and I am talking about 2000s era Satellite. Even when MH370 is lost in the Indian Ocean, the satellite they use to pick up the scan can see 300 square Kilometres per runs. That's early 2010s and probably non-military satellite, I would imagine they probably would be able to do 4-500 sq km per grid.

Mind you, the entire search grid for the potential MH370 crash site is 7.8 millions sq km.......That's bigger than the landmass of Australia.......

Then you have a big ship which mean constant support, you can more or less track and trace those support activities to find your ship, the bigger the operation (for a bigger ship) mean easier to trace.
 
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Genghis khan1

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1000km is small........

Not sure if you had use satellite before, you can cover that with 3 or 4 satellites (Depends on resolution) and I am talking about 2000s era Satellite. Even when MH370 is lost in the Indian Ocean, the satellite they use to pick up the scan can see 300 square Kilometres per runs. That's early 2010s and probably non-military satellite, I would imagine they probably would be able to do 4-500 sq km per grid.

Mind you, the entire search grid for the potential MH370 crash site is 7.8 millions sq km.......That's bigger than the landmass of Australia.......

Then you have a big ship which mean constant support, you can more or less track and trace those support activities to find your ship, the bigger the operation (for a bigger ship) mean easier to trace.
I am sure Navy Top brass took into consideration all type of sensors activity in their area . Navy needs an X amount of ships with atleast Y amount of tonnage to somewhat effectively cover their area of operation and or launch and an offensive mission without leaving coastline totally vulnerable.
 

ARMalik

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I don't want to spoil the thread but can I ask what is this Warship going to be used for since we are NOT going to be fighting anymore with India??
 

My-Analogous

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Well, they sure did make an impact on those top brass there......Not sure about the young blood sailor.....

Anyway, I think PN needs to invest in 7-8000 ton ship, 3-4000 tons (if they are the same spec with Type 54A) is too small and most likely taken up berthing space. While I think it is good to have in the interim, you want a ship that can do both AS/AA role and possibly Anti-Surface role, it does not need to be super advance but you can have less ship but more capability, that translate to survivability.

On the other hand, were Pakistani involvement with Milgem only for 4 Corvette? Or is there are new development that PN are interested in TF-2000 project? TF-2000 would be ideal, but given Turkey have enough economic might to actually build it.
Type054AP is 4000ton ship and we order 3 ships, we have not much sea area and with 8 subs. We are in good shape
 

mudas777

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PN should start naming its ships after national heroes as well along with Islamic ones. How about naming one Porus, Jasrath, Khushal khan, Saadullah, Adina beg, Siraj-ud-duala, Shabaz khan, Sarang kham or such other heroes.
How many internationally renowned hero's we have produced since we have got independence?? How ever we have produced Nawaz Sharif's, Shahbaz Sharif, Marium Nawaz, Marium Aurengzaeb, Zardari, Benazir, Bajwa, ISI Anjuman, and list is endless who have legendry status in their fields and books are written about them for their achievements.
Imagine with the above names ship goes to other countries for state visits and instead of musical reception receives eggs reception.
From the last 70 years apart from the Salam and Ehdi and few cricketers not much we have achieved, and our Noble prize winners list is empty and that's a nation of 220 million. 70 years ago we had hero's and now we have multiple zero's and about time to reflect what we need to do instead of thinking about names think about characters.
 

huanghong

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Why didn't Pakistan's 054a get the same aesa illumination radar as the latest batch of 054A? According to the data from the Zhuhai Air Show, each of the new radars can fight 4 targets at the same time, which is 4 times that of the original MR-90. At the same time, the irradiation distance is increased to 80km to match the Hongqi-16c with a range of 70km.
054a12.jpg
 

CodeforFood

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He considered himself solider of Islam. He is the grand father of Mughals. He did kicked everyone butt, from Eastern Europe to Indian subcontinent. He succeeded where ottomans failed repeatedly. Took down strong hold of Knights Hospitaller which no Muslim army in centuries was able to win over.

Parts of Pakistan are named after his son like Miran shah. Emir Taimur via Mughal diaspora has direct link to Pakistan.

No other warriors in Pakistani extended history (or even world to some extent) can match his success.
this might be a thread derail, but in any case, there is not doubting Genghis and Taimur are the true world conquerer. I disagree that he was a mongol (mughals derives themselves from it) though that's why he never took the title of khan. He pretty much stopped ottoman's drive towards eastern Europe when it was ripe for the taking. I can go in much more detail but it is probably not relevant here.
 

Genghis khan1

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this might be a thread derail, but in any case, there is not doubting Genghis and Taimur are the true world conquerer. I disagree that he was a mongol (mughals derives themselves from it) though that's why he never took the title of khan. He pretty much stopped ottoman's drive towards eastern Europe when it was ripe for the taking. I can go in much more detail but it is probably not relevant here.
Mughal are Tatars not mongols. From same Central Asia, Persian mistook them as mongols but Mughals don’t even look like mongols.
 

jhungary

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Type054AP is 4000ton ship and we order 3 ships, we have not much sea area and with 8 subs. We are in good shape
You still need to get out of the Littoral role and fight whoever you want to fight in the open ocean, that's because you don't have much of a coastline, that mean that strategic depth is going to work against PN, which mean PN would need to expand their capability into open ocean, that means you will need firepower and endurance, which mean you need bigger ship than a 3-4000 tons frigate.

This is enough for the interim, but at a long run, PN would want to have a go between Frigate-Destroyer. Maybe a scale up version of Type 054 or scale down version of Type 052, you need something that's between 6-8000 tons with a lot of firepower for sea control, and the smaller ship to work their specific task.

I am sure Navy Top brass took into consideration all type of sensors activity in their area . Navy needs an X amount of ships with atleast Y amount of tonnage to somewhat effectively cover their area of operation and or launch and an offensive mission without leaving coastline totally vulnerable.
Well, I am just stating my opinion.......

I can be wrong, of course, but as a nation, you probably want some more mission capable ship.
 

iLION12345_1

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Yeah CAMM-ER is a much more modern missile compared to HHQ-16 but HHQ-16 still has slightly longer range and HHQ-16A or B would have nearly double the range. The main difference is HQ-16 basically has a gigantic warhead for a SAM because it uses a conical fragmentation method which improves killed probability. The heavier warhead also allows navy to use HQ-16 in ballistic mode for anti-surface where range is even more extended. Attacking ground or ships as secondary function is something it is more capable of doing due to significantly larger warhead and slightly better range.

Also 054A can carry 32 HHQ-16 missiles rather than 16 for Babur. 054A also has one more heavy main CIWS. Software and electronics is a bit more of an unknown. One could say Babur's should be more modern compared at least to Pakistan's version of 054A but who knows. 054AP has received some sensor upgrades to PLAN's and China's military electronics is on another level compared to Turkey honestly but of course many on this forum will believe otherwise.

If Pakistan's 054AP can use YJ-12 missiles instead of the older YJ-83 or the export version of YJ-83, then that's a serious improvement. YJ-12 is not vertical launch so PLAN's modern ships don't launch YJ-12 but the older ones do and air launched of course. If 054A can be upgraded to fire YJ-12, then that's like having 8 Brahmos (but with superior cruise and lower sea skimming and superior jamming and ECCM).
I doubt HQ-16 or HQ-16A (they both have the same range) has more range than CAMM-ER. The bigger limitation for the 054A is it’s older aiming and guidance system.
HQ-16B doesn’t exist in a naval version, the naval version of HQ-16 has a 40KM range. CAMM-ER is just generally much newer than the HQ-16/16A, I’d also say it has a higher kill probability in that case.

054A definitely has it in numbers, 32 versus 16. I’m not sure how GOKDENIZ compares to Type 1130 CIWS but it’s definitely heavier and bigger.

I would say Babur has better software and electronics than 054A, not because Turkey has an edge in that regard over China (I don’t believe that for a second), but because the 054A itself is an older design and I doubt the internals have been upgraded in that regard. If we compared say a Type 52D or Type 55 instead the story would be extremely different. China still has a ways to go before it reaches the electronics level of Germany, France, Italy etc however (I bring this up because some European systems might end up on the Babur).

Not sure about AShMs, there was plenty of discussion on those but I believe the conclusion was that they’re carrying the same AShMs as Chinese 054As. Possible future upgrade however.
 

serenity

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I doubt HQ-16 or HQ-16A (they both have the same range) has more range than CAMM-ER. The bigger limitation for the 054A is it’s older aiming and guidance system.
HQ-16B doesn’t exist in a naval version, the naval version of HQ-16 has a 40KM range. CAMM-ER is just generally much newer than the HQ-16/16A, I’d also say it has a higher kill probability in that case.

054A definitely has it in numbers, 32 versus 16. I’m not sure how GOKDENIZ compares to Type 1130 CIWS but it’s definitely heavier and bigger.

I would say Babur has better software and electronics than 054A, not because Turkey has an edge in that regard over China (I don’t believe that for a second), but because the 054A itself is an older design and I doubt the internals have been upgraded in that regard. If we compared say a Type 52D or Type 55 instead the story would be extremely different. China still has a ways to go before it reaches the electronics level of Germany, France, Italy etc however (I bring this up because some European systems might end up on the Babur).

Not sure about AShMs, there was plenty of discussion on those but I believe the conclusion was that they’re carrying the same AShMs as Chinese 054As. Possible future upgrade however.

I would suggest that China's electronic industry is far ahead of France, Germany, and Italy.

Telecommunications, radar, networking equipment. I mean if we look at AESA, Type 346 was fielded well before Europeans, Space based telecommunications and networking even sensors for tracking ballistic missiles and things like hypersonic aircraft. 5G, now 6G, electronics devices basically in every form from consumer to industry use.

In electronics generally Japan, China, Taiwan, South Korea, Germany, and USA are leaders, then come Sweden, UK, and France and then others. France and Germany have their specialty areas but overall, neither has 5G tech even. 5G ecosystem is like several hundred pieces of technologies. What about space based encrypted quantum tech... lidar sensors for autonomous cars, LED modules, AESA modules and so on. Lots of examples. But Type 054A uses older electronics for certain and it is an aging ship.

Simply the 054A is just a very lower tier ship for Chinese navy and it is also old. Therefore there is little doubt most of its major electronics are outdated compared to the latest European ones.

Babur may not receive all the best of what Europe has. Just like it would be incorrect to assume PN's Type 054AP will also receive upgrades of what China has. In fact on that we know it does not. It simply has what old 054A has but with a few new radars and maybe command modules fitted to suit PN specifically in terms of use and language etc.

Overall, Babur's firepower cannot compare. 054A is a bigger ship and due to older age and design but we shouldn't ignore that 054A carries basically twice the raw firepower than Babur. It doesn't use its weight well compared to more modern ships though but it's also not terrible in this department either.

054A's VLS cannot quad pack unlike 052D and 055 but if HQ-16 can be upgraded to really make use of its size, then it should easily exceed 100km range. They just want to pack a giant warhead on this missile for whatever reason. YJ-83 is also too old and not capable and if the 8 slant launchers can be upgraded to fire YJ-12 then that will be a huge upgrade in anti surface. However it requires some networking equipment to CEC and needs longer range radars and over the horizon radars or rely on network but PN and PAF do not have the compatibility or the platforms for YJ-12 guidance.

This means 054A is mostly for anti-sub mainly. Barely able to defend itself with just what it has in air defence limited in sensors with 054A against major attacks. Babur also not that great in AD due to only carrying 16 SAMs and one single smaller CIWS. Out of the three services, PN certainly is the least capable but luckily India's naval capabilities are not impressive and they have a very, VERY weak submarine force. Still they do have two carriers and a handful of modern ships, all more modern and more firepower than 054A and Babur - Vish class, Kolkatta, and even their best frigate is pretty decent. This means PAF has a role to play in case of anything.

Hopefully China can deliver some ASBM of older generations for the purpose of sinking major Indian ships in case of naval war. They can have deniability if the ASBM are operated by Chinese forces inside Pakistan. Satellites cannot tell Chinese from Pakistanis if Pakistani uniforms are worn. Can always just claim these were sold to Pakistan and China doesn't have to worry about opsec if only Chinese crew operate first gen ASBMs.
 
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