• Saturday, December 7, 2019

SD-10 vs AIM-120 (Latest versions)

Discussion in 'Pakistan Strategic Forces' started by MZUBAIR, Nov 19, 2010.

  1. jagjitnatt

    jagjitnatt SENIOR MEMBER

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    Thank you for the update. I hope other members learn something from this.

    LOL. It is hilarious when people say cause developers said its >70, and it could be anything over 70 km. :lol:
     
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  2. TaimiKhan

    TaimiKhan SENIOR MODERATOR

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    Yeah, for people like you, it seems hilarious since you are the only one with LOL, but those who have common sense can understand and show some understanding too with so much public data, which clearly gives a hint that the range is not 70KM, but i know its hard for you to understand, since i have a very good past record with you about your knowledge. Heck, even the post #163 by Tempest could not make you understand that at what conditions or factors the range is calculated, especially for SD-10A, kindly read it and update yourself that at what conditions range is 70KM for SD-10A and how by manipulating the conditions the range can be increased, which clearly tells us that the SD-10A can fly further if there is a change in the conditions for the launching of SD-10, that is why the manufacturers have put the > sign in their official brochettes, as the missile can go above 70KM range if conditions permit it.

    Read that post and understand it, don't come back the way you came last time in your replies.
     
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  3. jha

    jha ELITE MEMBER

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    The range of AAM is highly misunderstood term..No missile which claims to have a range of 70 Km. can shoot a fighter at 70 km..
    The max.range is calculated in the most favorable conditions ..
    You had explained this but it seems Fanboyism is more dominant here..
     
  4. TaimiKhan

    TaimiKhan SENIOR MODERATOR

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    Yeah, we all can see who is more fan boy of what and whom.
     
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  5. SomeGuy

    SomeGuy FULL MEMBER

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    Most favourable conditions? - Not entirely true I'm afraid.

    Look back to post #163.

    Different manufacturers use different conditions to test their products.

    According to the article:

    For SD-10A it was
    Alt: 10,000m, Speed: Mach 1.2​
    For R-77 it was
    Alt: 20,000m, Speed: Mach 1.5​

    If SD-10 was to be tested under the most favourable conditions, it would've have been done at a higher altitude and higher speed, like the R-77, this would have yieled a longer range. But the manufacturers didn't do this because they wanted to use the same testing conditions as the AIM-120.
     
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  6. Chogy

    Chogy PROFESSIONAL

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    Ranges vary wildly, and BOTH the launch platform and target speed, altitude, and aspect angles come into major play.

    An AIM-9M has a published range of, say, 8nm. What they don't say is that a tail-chase near sea-level, with a target doing M1.2, the range shrinks to <3nm. At 50,000 feet, launch platform at M2.0, target coming on at M2.0, now you're looking (kinematically) at 20NM+.

    Take it all with a grain of salt. Actual max ranges are situationally dependent, and actual kinetic profile is classified.
     
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  7. Super Falcon

    Super Falcon ELITE MEMBER

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    so Taimi khan what you think both missiles at par or chinese is beter or american but i think PAF people are smart not stupids that factor let me think that SD 10 is as good as AMRAAM 120
     
  8. TaimiKhan

    TaimiKhan SENIOR MODERATOR

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    For now due to the superiority of weapons we have seen from the Americans, my bet is on the AMRAAM. Chinese are new to the game and learning.
     
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  9. AerospaceEngineer

    AerospaceEngineer BANNED

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    MAJOR differences!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    PL-12 IS NOT SD-10.

    SD-10A is the export version of PL-12 the main difference is the data link and radar seeker. This way even if Americans, Indians, or others get SD-10, it will not get vital informatiions about PL-12's data link and radar informations!

    PL-12A is currently state of art, has a range over 110KM!
     
  10. AerospaceEngineer

    AerospaceEngineer BANNED

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  11. Stealth_fighter

    Stealth_fighter FULL MEMBER

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    The SD-10 is the first active radar-guided beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missile (AAM) to be developed and fielded in China. It is the product of a high-priority programme, launched in the 1990s, to produce a modern air-to-air weapon for the new generation of Chinese combat aircraft taking shape at that time. The SD-10 is now in front-line service with the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) and Navy (PLAN), equipping aircraft like the (late model) Shenyang J-8, Chengdu J-10 and Shenyang J-11B. The missile has been exported to Pakistan, to arm the JF-17 Thunder there. An improved version, the SD-10A, followed the baseline SD-10 into production, and this is now assumed to be the standard variant. Further development of the SD-10 is assumed to be underway although there is little official information available on this aspect.In November 2010 a significant claim was made for the SD-10's performance. Officials from LOEC said that the SD-10 was designed from its inception to function with a dual-mode seeker operating in distinct active and passive radar homing modes. If this assertion is accurate then the SD-10 is a more capable weapon than hitherto believed. In fact, it would be the first AAM to enter service with this acknowledged capability.The SD-10 is a product of the Luoyang Electro-Optical Technology Development Center (LOEC) which provides a core element of the air weapons expertise within its parent, the Aviation Industries Corporation of China (AVIC) industrial bloc. This missile product line includes the PL-5E, PL-9C

    this article was published jan 20 2011 in j a n e s.i tried to insert the link but it did not work.and in another article i read that range is greater then 100km
     
  12. rcrmj

    rcrmj SENIOR MEMBER

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    I think one thing needs to clarify about AAM missiles' maximum range is that there are 3 kinds of maximum ranges

    1. the maximum dynamic flight range which includes the glide range
    2. the maximum flight range by motor
    3. the classic max engage range (with all favorable conditions, height, speed, etc``)

    the first one tends to have the longest range but the stats is usless in combat situation and it is just a fair judgment on missile's areodynamics.

    the second one which is mostly quoted by manufactures as the attribute. at the moment none of any AAM missile has over 90km ranges. I believe the SD-10 70km range falls into this category

    and the 3nd range that matters the most in real combat situation. called none escaptable zoon!

    for example; in the best senario of F-22 carrying AIM-120 at optimum high altitude and speed of 1.5M, when the opponent heading directly with speed of 1.2M the maximum engage range of AIM-120 is 49KM! which means when the target steps in 49KM then its death zoon!

    but of couse in that senario F-22 can fire missile beyond 49 KM but the killing ratio will drop dramaticly!

    so therefore, I do not believe PL-12 has a classic maximum engagment range more than 50 KM at the moment taking the fact that our J-20 is still in development.
     
  13. nightcrawler

    nightcrawler FULL MEMBER

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    Being said in the context of air to air missiles I am afraid that I will disagree with you on this...The Russians clearly has the advantage in the field of A2A Missile. The deadliest; most maneuverable & most high ranged missile come from Vympel design bureau & not the Raython/Boeing...
    I am quiet keen over the marginal developments in this particular field by the Russian...do see their latest developments as of 2011
    DefenceDog: PAK-FA [T-50] Latest Armaments
     
  14. Agnostic_Indian

    Agnostic_Indian SENIOR MEMBER

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    http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...s-aim-120-latest-versions-11.html#post1386428
    This is from above link which quotes sd10 designer interview.

    "Efective combat altitude
    0-25Km.
    Ability to engage target
    10kms higher or lower than
    launch altitude.
    Range at 10Km altitude at
    M1.2 target at same
    altitude =70Km.
    No escape zone for F-16
    type target = 35-45km
    Max overload=38G, Speed
    =4M

    1.)"What the designer said is
    that they used the same
    way AIM-120 calculated its
    range. target and launch
    aircraft flying at each other
    at 1.2 mach and at 10000
    metres. The range is 70 km
    under such circumstance.

    Also interesting is the
    designer basically said the
    russians "cheated" with
    R-77, as they calculated
    the max range with target
    and launcher flying at each
    other at 1.5 mach and at
    12000 metres altitude."



    2. Ahout the max shot range:
    The Deputy Chief Designer
    of SD-10 said: The
    parameter of &#8220;max range&#8221; is
    determined by the relative
    position of missile&#8217;s carrier
    and the target aircraft. The
    assumed conditions by
    various countries are
    different. So what the
    Russian said the max range
    100Km may not be better
    than what we said the max
    range 70Km. The max
    range 70Km in SD-10
    marketing promotion
    brochure is measured under
    the condition that both the
    missile&#8217;s carrier and the
    target aircraft are flying at
    10Km&#8217;s altitude, both the
    missile carrier&#8217;s velocity
    and target&#8217;s velocity are
    1.2Mach, their flying
    direction is reverse(head to
    head). AIM120&#8217;s test
    condition is similar to
    SD-10. However Russian&#8217;s
    propaganda is a little more
    exaggerated. For example,
    R-77&#8217;s test condition is:
    carrier and target are flying
    at 20Km&#8217;s altitude; each
    has 1.5M&#8217;s velocity, head
    to head flying. Under such
    a condition, the max range
    is 100Km.
    I SEE CONTRADICTIONS IN POINT ONE AND POINT TWO REGARDING THE ALTITUDE IN WHICH HE SAYS RUSSIANS TESTED R77.
    @sancho @sandy_3126, @DARKY @stormForce @Abingdonboy
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 5, 2013
  15. sancho

    sancho ELITE MEMBER

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    Obviously, but I didn't find other specs for the test altitude, so can't tell help you here.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 5, 2013
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