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SD-10 vs AIM-120 (Latest versions)

jagjitnatt

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PL-12/SD-10 (courtesy of FK, ZC, SZX, hxqy)

PL-12's export version is called SD-10 (SD-10A as the improved version) and was first revealed to the public during the 2002 Zhuhai Airshow. PL-12 (K/AKK-12?) has been under development at LETRI/607 Institute since early 90s. It was initially expected to be in the same class as AIM-120A and its active seeker may have evolved from the earlier AMR-1 design (R-129? based on Russian 9B-1348 seeker & datalink for R-77). Its tailfins appear to have fin tips as well as the leading edges of the fin root cropped. These specially designed tailfins are believed to possess lower drag for greater speed and higher torque for better maneuverability. Two datalink antennas can be seen next to the nozzle for mid-course correction. Several dielectric strips are seen along the middle warhead section which may house the radio proximity fuse. PL-12 completed its development test in December 2004 and was certified in 2005. Currently it is in the service with J-8F, J-10 and J-11B. In addition it is expected to equip JF-17/FC-1 currently entering service with PAF. Some specifications of SD-10: length 3,850mm, diameter 203mm, wing span 674mm, weight 180kg, max g-load 38g, max speed 4M, max range 70km. Recently produced PL-12 is expected to feature an improved seeker with new digital processor and SINS. The improved PL-12 (PL-12A?) is thought to be comparable to American AIM-120C4. The latest news (November 2010) suggested that PL-12 may feature an active/passive dual mode seeker in order to achieve greater ECCM capability and kill probability. Several improved versions have been under development at 607 Institute, including PL-12B with improved guidance system, PL-12C with foldable tailfins for internal carriage by the 4th generation fighters (e.g. J-20) and PL-12D with a belly air inlet and a ramjet motor for long range attack similar to PL-21.

- Last Updated 1/2/11
Thank you for the update. I hope other members learn something from this.

LOL. It is hilarious when people say cause developers said its >70, and it could be anything over 70 km. :lol:
 

TaimiKhan

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Thank you for the update. I hope other members learn something from this.

LOL. It is hilarious when people say cause developers said its >70, and it could be anything over 70 km. :lol:
Yeah, for people like you, it seems hilarious since you are the only one with LOL, but those who have common sense can understand and show some understanding too with so much public data, which clearly gives a hint that the range is not 70KM, but i know its hard for you to understand, since i have a very good past record with you about your knowledge. Heck, even the post #163 by Tempest could not make you understand that at what conditions or factors the range is calculated, especially for SD-10A, kindly read it and update yourself that at what conditions range is 70KM for SD-10A and how by manipulating the conditions the range can be increased, which clearly tells us that the SD-10A can fly further if there is a change in the conditions for the launching of SD-10, that is why the manufacturers have put the > sign in their official brochettes, as the missile can go above 70KM range if conditions permit it.

Read that post and understand it, don't come back the way you came last time in your replies.
 

jha

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Thank you for the update. I hope other members learn something from this.

LOL. It is hilarious when people say cause developers said its >70, and it could be anything over 70 km. :lol:
The range of AAM is highly misunderstood term..No missile which claims to have a range of 70 Km. can shoot a fighter at 70 km..
The max.range is calculated in the most favorable conditions ..
You had explained this but it seems Fanboyism is more dominant here..
 

TaimiKhan

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The range of AAM is highly misunderstood term..No missile which claims to have a range of 70 Km. can shoot a fighter at 70 km..
The max.range is calculated in the most favorable conditions ..
You had explained this but it seems Fanboyism is more dominant here..
Yeah, we all can see who is more fan boy of what and whom.
 

SomeGuy

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The range of AAM is highly misunderstood term..No missile which claims to have a range of 70 Km. can shoot a fighter at 70 km..
The max.range is calculated in the most favorable conditions ..
You had explained this but it seems Fanboyism is more dominant here..
Most favourable conditions? - Not entirely true I'm afraid.

Look back to post #163.

Different manufacturers use different conditions to test their products.

According to the article:

For SD-10A it was
Alt: 10,000m, Speed: Mach 1.2​
For R-77 it was
Alt: 20,000m, Speed: Mach 1.5​

If SD-10 was to be tested under the most favourable conditions, it would've have been done at a higher altitude and higher speed, like the R-77, this would have yieled a longer range. But the manufacturers didn't do this because they wanted to use the same testing conditions as the AIM-120.
 

Chogy

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Ranges vary wildly, and BOTH the launch platform and target speed, altitude, and aspect angles come into major play.

An AIM-9M has a published range of, say, 8nm. What they don't say is that a tail-chase near sea-level, with a target doing M1.2, the range shrinks to <3nm. At 50,000 feet, launch platform at M2.0, target coming on at M2.0, now you're looking (kinematically) at 20NM+.

Take it all with a grain of salt. Actual max ranges are situationally dependent, and actual kinetic profile is classified.
 

Super Falcon

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so Taimi khan what you think both missiles at par or chinese is beter or american but i think PAF people are smart not stupids that factor let me think that SD 10 is as good as AMRAAM 120
 

TaimiKhan

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so Taimi khan what you think both missiles at par or chinese is beter or american but i think PAF people are smart not stupids that factor let me think that SD 10 is as good as AMRAAM 120
For now due to the superiority of weapons we have seen from the Americans, my bet is on the AMRAAM. Chinese are new to the game and learning.
 
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MAJOR differences!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PL-12 IS NOT SD-10.

SD-10A is the export version of PL-12 the main difference is the data link and radar seeker. This way even if Americans, Indians, or others get SD-10, it will not get vital informatiions about PL-12's data link and radar informations!

PL-12A is currently state of art, has a range over 110KM!
 

Stealth_fighter

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The SD-10 is the first active radar-guided beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missile (AAM) to be developed and fielded in China. It is the product of a high-priority programme, launched in the 1990s, to produce a modern air-to-air weapon for the new generation of Chinese combat aircraft taking shape at that time. The SD-10 is now in front-line service with the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) and Navy (PLAN), equipping aircraft like the (late model) Shenyang J-8, Chengdu J-10 and Shenyang J-11B. The missile has been exported to Pakistan, to arm the JF-17 Thunder there. An improved version, the SD-10A, followed the baseline SD-10 into production, and this is now assumed to be the standard variant. Further development of the SD-10 is assumed to be underway although there is little official information available on this aspect.In November 2010 a significant claim was made for the SD-10's performance. Officials from LOEC said that the SD-10 was designed from its inception to function with a dual-mode seeker operating in distinct active and passive radar homing modes. If this assertion is accurate then the SD-10 is a more capable weapon than hitherto believed. In fact, it would be the first AAM to enter service with this acknowledged capability.The SD-10 is a product of the Luoyang Electro-Optical Technology Development Center (LOEC) which provides a core element of the air weapons expertise within its parent, the Aviation Industries Corporation of China (AVIC) industrial bloc. This missile product line includes the PL-5E, PL-9C

this article was published jan 20 2011 in j a n e s.i tried to insert the link but it did not work.and in another article i read that range is greater then 100km
 

rcrmj

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WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SD-10A already has rang ove 100KM

PL-12 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I think one thing needs to clarify about AAM missiles' maximum range is that there are 3 kinds of maximum ranges

1. the maximum dynamic flight range which includes the glide range
2. the maximum flight range by motor
3. the classic max engage range (with all favorable conditions, height, speed, etc``)

the first one tends to have the longest range but the stats is usless in combat situation and it is just a fair judgment on missile's areodynamics.

the second one which is mostly quoted by manufactures as the attribute. at the moment none of any AAM missile has over 90km ranges. I believe the SD-10 70km range falls into this category

and the 3nd range that matters the most in real combat situation. called none escaptable zoon!

for example; in the best senario of F-22 carrying AIM-120 at optimum high altitude and speed of 1.5M, when the opponent heading directly with speed of 1.2M the maximum engage range of AIM-120 is 49KM! which means when the target steps in 49KM then its death zoon!

but of couse in that senario F-22 can fire missile beyond 49 KM but the killing ratio will drop dramaticly!

so therefore, I do not believe PL-12 has a classic maximum engagment range more than 50 KM at the moment taking the fact that our J-20 is still in development.
 

nightcrawler

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For now due to the superiority of weapons we have seen from the Americans, my bet is on the AMRAAM. Chinese are new to the game and learning.
Being said in the context of air to air missiles I am afraid that I will disagree with you on this...The Russians clearly has the advantage in the field of A2A Missile. The deadliest; most maneuverable & most high ranged missile come from Vympel design bureau & not the Raython/Boeing...
I am quiet keen over the marginal developments in this particular field by the Russian...do see their latest developments as of 2011
DefenceDog: PAK-FA [T-50] Latest Armaments
 

Agnostic_Indian

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http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...s-aim-120-latest-versions-11.html#post1386428
This is from above link which quotes sd10 designer interview.

"Efective combat altitude
0-25Km.
Ability to engage target
10kms higher or lower than
launch altitude.
Range at 10Km altitude at
M1.2 target at same
altitude =70Km.
No escape zone for F-16
type target = 35-45km
Max overload=38G, Speed
=4M

1.)"What the designer said is
that they used the same
way AIM-120 calculated its
range. target and launch
aircraft flying at each other
at 1.2 mach and at 10000
metres. The range is 70 km
under such circumstance.

Also interesting is the
designer basically said the
russians "cheated" with
R-77, as they calculated
the max range with target
and launcher flying at each
other at 1.5 mach and at
12000 metres altitude."



2. Ahout the max shot range:
The Deputy Chief Designer
of SD-10 said: The
parameter of &#8220;max range&#8221; is
determined by the relative
position of missile&#8217;s carrier
and the target aircraft. The
assumed conditions by
various countries are
different. So what the
Russian said the max range
100Km may not be better
than what we said the max
range 70Km. The max
range 70Km in SD-10
marketing promotion
brochure is measured under
the condition that both the
missile&#8217;s carrier and the
target aircraft are flying at
10Km&#8217;s altitude, both the
missile carrier&#8217;s velocity
and target&#8217;s velocity are
1.2Mach, their flying
direction is reverse(head to
head). AIM120&#8217;s test
condition is similar to
SD-10. However Russian&#8217;s
propaganda is a little more
exaggerated. For example,
R-77&#8217;s test condition is:
carrier and target are flying
at 20Km&#8217;s altitude; each
has 1.5M&#8217;s velocity, head
to head flying. Under such
a condition, the max range
is 100Km.
I SEE CONTRADICTIONS IN POINT ONE AND POINT TWO REGARDING THE ALTITUDE IN WHICH HE SAYS RUSSIANS TESTED R77.
@sancho @sandy_3126, @DARKY @stormForce @Abingdonboy
 
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