• Monday, December 9, 2019

SD-10 vs AIM-120 (Latest versions)

Discussion in 'Pakistan Strategic Forces' started by MZUBAIR, Nov 19, 2010.

  1. rockstarIN

    rockstarIN SENIOR MEMBER

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    Is new ARMRAAM versions is using ramjet technology?

    If yes, did they already field it with their fighters?

    So far I think, Ramjet powered BVRs are under testing. ARMRAAM, Meteor and R-77new versions, yet to integrate to the fighters..
     
  2. jagjitnatt

    jagjitnatt SENIOR MEMBER

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    Range can be increased, but that requires structural changes, and much more propellant since adding more propellant will also add more weight, and that requires more thrust to counter.

    This is the reason AAMs are not used as SAMs in most cases. Also that most AAMs and shorter SAMs coast in their final phase, and don't have their engines on. So this further reduces their chance to maneuver.
     
  3. MZUBAIR

    MZUBAIR SENIOR MEMBER

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    While some confusion remains about designations, most sources identify the SD-10 and PL-12 as the
    same missile, China's equivalent to the AMRAAM. This weapon is in sizing and configuration very similar
    to the AIM-120A, but employs a unique tail planform. Equipped with an active radar seeker, and datalink
    aided inertial midcourse guidance, this missile is a credible player against the AMRAAM and R-77 series.
    The indigenous AMR-1 active seeker is identified with the PL-12, and numerous reports exist claiming that
    it is a derivative of the Russian Agat 9B-1348E seeker package used in the R-77 series. The production
    status of the PL-12 is unclear, but the missile has been claimed as a future weapon for the indigenous J-
    10 fighter and the Su-27SK and Su-30, replacing imported R-77s on the latter. There is little doubt that
    the PL-12 closes most of the technology gap between Chinese built BVR missiles and in service Western
    BVR missiles.

    Source
     
  4. jagjitnatt

    jagjitnatt SENIOR MEMBER

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    Well, it was not a surprise to me when they said it has a dual mode seeker, because the seeker used in SD-10 is a seeker form R-77 missile, and R-77 missile has passive as well as active radar modes.
    This allows the missile to be used as an anti-radiation missile.
     
  5. rockstarIN

    rockstarIN SENIOR MEMBER

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    You mean to say Russians gave out their technology or they reverse engineered?
     
  6. jagjitnatt

    jagjitnatt SENIOR MEMBER

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    Russians sold R77s to China, and China reverse engineered.
    Earlier it directly used the seeker of R-77 on its missiles, and now working on its own seekers.
     
  7. Dazzler

    Dazzler PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    Judging by history, my optimism has been closer to reality so i am confident this time around it will be no different. By the way, sd-10a does have a range of 90-100 km as per my source in PAF and this variant was tested on JFT not too long ago. B variant is to have a more powerful motor with new seeker and range to be reached as per PLAAF and PAF is at least 140 km.


    Regards
     
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  8. SomeGuy

    SomeGuy FULL MEMBER

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    A combination of joint development, tech transfer and further R&D.

    PL-12 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  9. TaimiKhan

    TaimiKhan SENIOR MODERATOR

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    Problem with people is that they don't employ sometimes the common sense, thus they stick to one thing and don't show flexibility.

    About the range of SD-10A, its common sense to get an idea from the official figures shown at international air or defence related shows, the Chinese give the range as >70KM, not as =70KM, meaning its greater or equal to 70KM, again meaning the real range has been not classified, rather the original user may get to know what the real range is. Even JDW had in some of its articles quoted the 80KM range, some stuck with the 70KM range, and then 1-2 years back we started to hear the 100Km mark.

    We have to remember, that the SD-10A / PL-12 has just recently entered the CAF, the pictures which we would use to see were of the missiles given to operational units for testing and evaluation and most probably in 2010 the first operational batch of PL-12s were inducted in the CAF. The missile program was started way back in this early decade or in last decade and since then we have been hearing the 70KM range figure. Its ironic that a missile in developed is quoted to have a range of 70KM back in 2001-02 is still having a range of 70KM in 2009-10 after 8 years of development when its being officially inducted, hard to believe that. And as said, the Chinse have themselves given the answer with the addition of this > figure in the official presentation, meaning the missile can go farther.

    I have no idea, why people become so rigid and can't see some of the simple facts infront of them.

    I have been hearing some pretty cool things about the PAF version of SD-10, hope the data link of SD-10 works smoothly with JF-17s western communication / data link, would be one good experience for PAF to do the integration.
     
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  10. BATMAN

    BATMAN ELITE MEMBER

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    Does SD-10 look like R-77 to you?
    What do you really imply with term 'reverse engineer'?
    China is working on every product you name!

    I think you get satidfied by down playing any development by China and Pakistan.
    Sorry to say, seems India have copy righted word 'Indigenous'. :disagree:
     
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  11. jagjitnatt

    jagjitnatt SENIOR MEMBER

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    I was talking about the seeker. Go read up something on it. Even chinese sites claim it is from the R-77.
     
  12. Tempest II

    Tempest II PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

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    Exactly my logic too and I agree with you. I however take it further qoute the PLA news article saying J-10s were armed with missiles with a range greather than 100km.

    Here is a second source:
    PLA Air to Air Missiles and the AIM-120C is quoted as having a range of 110km in some of its versions.

     
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  13. Tempest II

    Tempest II PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

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    One more post: I took this from acig.org. This is from April 2004 and apparently it was an interview with the SD-10 designer. The original SD-10 was superior to the R-77 and the AIM-120 A/B and was very close to the AIM-120C. So the fact that the SD-10A is superior to AIM-120C should be no suprise!!

    Also note that for ALL THE MISSILES the the targets are approaching at greather than Mach 1.2. So for a missile with a max speed of Mach 4, the target will be hit at about 70% of the given max range. I say 70% because the missile does not travel at Mach 4, the average speed for it flight is a lot less.

     
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  14. Manticore

    Manticore ADVISORS

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  15. fatman17

    fatman17 PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    PL-12/SD-10 (courtesy of FK, ZC, SZX, hxqy)

    PL-12's export version is called SD-10 (SD-10A as the improved version) and was first revealed to the public during the 2002 Zhuhai Airshow. PL-12 (K/AKK-12?) has been under development at LETRI/607 Institute since early 90s. It was initially expected to be in the same class as AIM-120A and its active seeker may have evolved from the earlier AMR-1 design (R-129? based on Russian 9B-1348 seeker & datalink for R-77). Its tailfins appear to have fin tips as well as the leading edges of the fin root cropped. These specially designed tailfins are believed to possess lower drag for greater speed and higher torque for better maneuverability. Two datalink antennas can be seen next to the nozzle for mid-course correction. Several dielectric strips are seen along the middle warhead section which may house the radio proximity fuse. PL-12 completed its development test in December 2004 and was certified in 2005. Currently it is in the service with J-8F, J-10 and J-11B. In addition it is expected to equip JF-17/FC-1 currently entering service with PAF. Some specifications of SD-10: length 3,850mm, diameter 203mm, wing span 674mm, weight 180kg, max g-load 38g, max speed 4M, max range 70km. Recently produced PL-12 is expected to feature an improved seeker with new digital processor and SINS. The improved PL-12 (PL-12A?) is thought to be comparable to American AIM-120C4. The latest news (November 2010) suggested that PL-12 may feature an active/passive dual mode seeker in order to achieve greater ECCM capability and kill probability. Several improved versions have been under development at 607 Institute, including PL-12B with improved guidance system, PL-12C with foldable tailfins for internal carriage by the 4th generation fighters (e.g. J-20) and PL-12D with a belly air inlet and a ramjet motor for long range attack similar to PL-21.

    - Last Updated 1/2/11