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SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

Tank131

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Mind you, South Korea has a robust industries and is a 1.8 trillion USD economy. There is no doubt money is critical in developing complex military platform. To compare South Korea (1.8 trillion economy ) vs Pakistan (200 billion economy ) is totally not a realistic comparison. Not to mention India as 3 trillion economy. Even just as an assembler for Pakistan, is already an achievement.
100%. My statement is not a slight on Pakistan, but a reality check. To where its sector is vs fanboy dreams. We like to talk without understanding of our actual capabilities or those of others. That said, i honestly believe with better and non military management (private sector) of these aviation and weapons developers in Pakistan, the nation would be further ahead in the last 20 years.
 

Trango Towers

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Pakistan "had to persevere" and progress the JF17 after the PLAAF pulled out of the FC1 programme - Pakistan had no choice but to carry on with it on it own.

My point, was very clearly was that China's PLAAF was meant to buy the FC1/JF17 jets in equal numbers to the PAF when the joint partnership was launched to develop the jet and the original business case/financials were centred around that. And when the PLAAF backed out of that commitment, it affected the programme as it fell to Pakistan to fund the various blocks on its own. Costs were not shared as originally planned with the PLAAF as the PLAAF had abandoned the FC1 programme in favour of the J-10 series.

Yes - JF17 has some J20 DNA in it - the integration of which was paid for by Pakistan, and different to the original plans of shared developement costs for enhancements between the PAF and PLAAF, but how does that relate to the PLAAF's original commitment to buy the FC1 aswell, and then backing out of that commitment?
Commitments and requirements change. We wouldn't have had a fighter if it wasn't for the manufacturing base of China. Fc1 in its original for was a mig 21 essentially. So its good they quit and we git a much better aircraft
 

Beast

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Commitments and requirements change. We wouldn't have had a fighter if it wasn't for the manufacturing base of China. Fc1 in its original for was a mig 21 essentially. So its good they quit and we git a much better aircraft
Not really true. Initial project is called sabre-7 project. Its is in very early of 1995 where China aviation design is still weak, many inspiration are borrow from Mig-21. Then came the moment when US release more F-16 sales to PAF and the need for Sabre-7 was cancel. Then came 2003 when China aviation design is on another level plus Pakistan was uneasy with US war on terror. The need for self reliance and a reliable military supply was needed.

After much discussion, FC-1 was born. With success of J-10. China is more familiar with modern aircraft design like FBW. That is where radical FC-1 / JF-17 is born out of its own and nothing associate with Mig-21.
 

Trango Towers

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Not really true. Initial project is called sabre-7 project. Its is in very early of 1995 where China aviation design is still weak, many inspiration are borrow from Mig-21. Then came the moment when US release more F-16 sales to PAF and the need for Sabre-7 was cancel. Then came 2003 when China aviation design is on another level plus Pakistan was uneasy with US war on terror. The need for self reliance and a reliable military supply was needed.

After much discussion, FC-1 was born. With success of J-10. China is more familiar with modern aircraft design like FBW. That is where radical FC-1 / JF-17 is born out of its own and nothing associate with Mig-21.
You wrote all that...why? Did I say anything to the contrary? Amazing bro
 

MastanKhan

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Absolutely agree on this - China was meant to purchase as many JF17s as Pakistan was meant to. When China pulled out of the programme from a procurement persepective - it fell on Pakistan to fund the completion of Block I, and pay for Block II / III's itself. There was no sharing of development costs which was part of the original business case for the JF17 !!! This funding of the development programme "soaked" up money that could have been used to perform more units of the JF17 - hence why the procurement of the JF17 felt so glacial for so long.

This has for sure left a sour taste in PAF's mouth as far as future development programmes go and how they will be structured.



Agree - let CATIC / China finance it and develop a mature product - there is no value in being the launch customer for the J-31/35 and paying for its development costs - when that money can be spent on procurements of platforms once the development was complete. This is not a co-development project that will directly benefit Pakistans aerospace industry much. Best decision Pakistan made was to sit on the sidelines for the J-35 programme despite all the PR/pressure/hard-sell by China / CATIC applied to try and get Pakistan as the launch customer and then make Pakistan pay for its development !!!!



I am beyond certain that Pakistan will induct the TFX. Pakistan is starting to incorporate Turkish military technology into its military with a view of having military diversity of course, but also as leverage against some of the more "sharper" Chinese "business" practices over its sales and prices of some it's systems. It is a hedge.
Hi,

The playing field changed---for that reason c hina stuck with the J10---.

The JF17 was what paf needed and that is what it got---.

PAF did a very poor homework on how to make the JF17 happen---. Structurally they did not have any issues---but the power plant and the EW package became a big hurdle---which was overcome with persistence---time was lost---experience was gained---self reliance was gained---.

The major issue was not having a 2 seater right from gitgo---that was a very very bad decision---.

That was a " court martial " type of decision---,

You cannot sell the aircraft if you cannot fly the aircraft---.

But in the end---JF17 fulfilled what the air force needed---. The J10 is filling a niche position---.

The success story of the Jf17 is that it is " ready when called on" and able to deliver as needed---. What more does an air force need---.

Now for its sale---.

Selling a fighter aircraft is a herculean task---specially for a nation like pakistan---.

If the pak govt had been more honest to pakistan in the last 15 years---and kepts its pakistan first priorities straight---things would be different---.

But even then---JF17 is still a success story---.

Every success has its failures---every victory has its moments of despair---. Set backs are a package enroute to success---but to make a " SOB STORY----translated in pakistani as Randi Rona about the JF17---is like negating the hardships & hurdles faced to make this aircraft a success.

Not really true. Initial project is called sabre-7 project. Its is in very early of 1995 where China aviation design is still weak, many inspiration are borrow from Mig-21. Then came the moment when US release more F-16 sales to PAF and the need for Sabre-7 was cancel. Then came 2003 when China aviation design is on another level plus Pakistan was uneasy with US war on terror. The need for self reliance and a reliable military supply was needed.

After much discussion, FC-1 was born. With success of J-10. China is more familiar with modern aircraft design like FBW. That is where radical FC-1 / JF-17 is born out of its own and nothing associate with Mig-21.
Hi,

JF17 has nothing to do with Sabre-7---.

Two totally different projects---.
 
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Raider 21

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Disagree.

There are more than 200 countries in the world, only P5, Sweden, Japan, Germany and Italy, whose fighter aircraft manufacturing is significantly stronger than that of Pakistan. India, Brazil, South Korea, Spain, Israel, Canada, Australia, Türkiye and other countries are at a similar level with Pakistan. More than 100 countries are significantly weaker than Pakistan.

So if Pakistan is just a child, then there are more than 100 countries just fertilized eggs.
I can safely say with confidence that Pakistan is not at the same level as Canada when it comes to aircraft manufacturing. Same goes for the other countries you mentioned, India probably just ahead of Pakistan because of their black market issues in the aerospace sector. Pakistan entered the game not too long ago when it comes to manufacturing fighter aircraft, it will take some time as the air force is trying to learn to become a manufacturer.
 

MH.Yang

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I can safely say with confidence that Pakistan is not at the same level as Canada when it comes to aircraft manufacturing. Same goes for the other countries you mentioned, India probably just ahead of Pakistan because of their black market issues in the aerospace sector. Pakistan entered the game not too long ago when it comes to manufacturing fighter aircraft, it will take some time as the air force is trying to learn to become a manufacturer.

CF-105

CS300

CL-215

PT6
 

PakFactor

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I can safely say with confidence that Pakistan is not at the same level as Canada when it comes to aircraft manufacturing. Same goes for the other countries you mentioned, India probably just ahead of Pakistan because of their black market issues in the aerospace sector. Pakistan entered the game not too long ago when it comes to manufacturing fighter aircraft, it will take some time as the air force is trying to learn to become a manufacturer.

I have an issue when it tries and does what it's not designed to do.
To establish this consortium, there should be civil-military joint ownership and bringing in talent from various fields, both national and international.
 

Horse_Rider

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Hi,

Welcome to the forum.

We are just a little child in aircraft manufacture

Thank you. I've been an avid visitor of this forum for over 12 years :). Just never had the time to join in and participate.

On the subject, not to derail a J-31 thread, I'm moving my response to a J-10 thread. Will add you to the comment there.
 
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Trango Towers

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I can safely say with confidence that Pakistan is not at the same level as Canada when it comes to aircraft manufacturing. Same goes for the other countries you mentioned, India probably just ahead of Pakistan because of their black market issues in the aerospace sector. Pakistan entered the game not too long ago when it comes to manufacturing fighter aircraft, it will take some time as the air force is trying to learn to become a manufacturer.
Yet no other airforce on the planet has designed developed and manufactured a fighter aircraft. Yes with a partner but how many partner nations does the f35 have? The typhoon, the tornado, jaguar etc etc
 

araz

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Pakistan has not been stung by the JFT. It was a pakistan proposed and Pakistan specific light fighter based on f16. This is straight from air Marshall shahid lateef the founder of the program. Now if Pakistan has suffered why now the block 3 has j20 tech in it. Its designed to take on Indian front line fighters. .
So your assumptions are negative and false
Fair enough. But what about the rest of my post. Are you suggesting PAF should go and buy the J31 despite the fact that PLAAF is not going to buy it? If so, please explain your reasons.
Kind regards
A
 

Trango Towers

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Fair enough. But what about the rest of my post. Are you suggesting PAF should go and buy the J31 despite the fact that PLAAF is not going to buy it? If so, please explain your reasons.
Kind regards
A
No I have no opinion on the j31. Having said that one has to ask why the J31 is being designed and is it export specific. If its export specific what tech will it bring to PAF that can neutralise the enemy threat. Additionally why are we not in the Turkish fighter program? They have offered it on a plate and we are still messing about.
Let's hope the future is good for Pakistan and its airforce but brother re j31 ... hard for me to say
 

SQ8

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I have an issue when it tries and does what it's not designed to do.
To establish this consortium, there should be civil-military joint ownership and bringing in talent from various fields, both national and international.
You can take a horse to water but not force it to drink it , nor can you change a donkey into a horse.
 

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