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SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate.

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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Hi,

The more you dig deeper into it---the more surprises you may find in the fighter aircraft skin material---. More of it to be aluminum.

Years ago I posted a picture of an F22---going re-surfacing---its skin was being chiselled away to remove the putty covering the skin and you could see the rivets in the aluminum skin attached to the frame.

That putty that covered the F22 aircraft skin was made from a material that made the aircraft invisible and it was not the composite materials that did it as much---.

I personally thinks that the americans have tried to confuse their enemies by diverting them to composite materials while still using aluminum skin and radar absorbing putty material covering the skin for ultimate stealth projection---.

The Boeing 787 I believe has been ground due to the failure of composites---.

What do you think @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
I can't speak to the Americans (not too informed on it), but I'm increasingly believing in KISS.

Basically, if we can get the required performance and capability parameters by keeping the materials simpler (and in turn less prone to sanctions, complications, flaws, etc), we'll save more in money and time. We would also avoid supply-side issues.

That said, composites may have their value for small applications, such as attritible drones (e.g., ALCM, decoy, loyal wingman, etc). The key is commoditizing the production chain to the point where the parts are generally on the simpler side while also cheap and quick to roll-out.
 

PakFactor

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Hi,

The more you dig deeper into it---the more surprises you may find in the fighter aircraft skin material---. More of it to be aluminum.

Years ago I posted a picture of an F22---going re-surfacing---its skin was being chiselled away to remove the putty covering the skin and you could see the rivets in the aluminum skin attached to the frame.

That putty that covered the F22 aircraft skin was made from a material that made the aircraft invisible and it was not the composite materials that did it as much---.

I personally thinks that the americans have tried to confuse their enemies by diverting them to composite materials while still using aluminum skin and radar absorbing putty material covering the skin for ultimate stealth projection---.

The Boeing 787 I believe has been ground due to the failure of composites---.

What do you think @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
What you are saying is correct, the link below has some good details; I feel we’ve been focusing on the wrong thing. While some panels have baked in stealth it’s more to do with the coating.

 

MastanKhan

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What you are saying is correct, the link below has some good details; I feel we’ve been focusing on the wrong thing. While some panels have baked in stealth it’s more to do with the coating.

Hi,

Thanks for finding that article. Here is a quip from it

" It's amazing to think that the powerful lines of the F-22 that we have come so familiar with are really just a cloak that conceals the aircraft beneath it. As these photos prove, when it comes to the Raptor, there is so much more than meets the eye and we may never really know anywhere near all of its shrouded secrets nor much about shrouds themselves that conceal them".

Now you wonder why the aircraft has issues in wet climate---.

Americans are masters of disguise---. The preach the principals of KISS to everyone---but many do not understand it or do not know what to do with it.

That is one thing different about pakistan's military's industrial complex---in successful projects---you would see them following that rule---which means the project director knew and understood what he had in plan.
 

Kabotar

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What is KISS?
Hi,

Thanks for finding that article. Here is a quip from it

" It's amazing to think that the powerful lines of the F-22 that we have come so familiar with are really just a cloak that conceals the aircraft beneath it. As these photos prove, when it comes to the Raptor, there is so much more than meets the eye and we may never really know anywhere near all of its shrouded secrets nor much about shrouds themselves that conceal them".

Now you wonder why the aircraft has issues in wet climate---.

Americans are masters of disguise---. The preach the principals of KISS to everyone---but many do not understand it or do not know what to do with it.

That is one thing different about pakistan's military's industrial complex---in successful projects---you would see them following that rule---which means the project director knew and understood what he had in plan.
 

MastanKhan

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What is KISS?
Hi,

Keep It Simple Stupid----. That is the basic american industrial engineering mantra---.

It is the principal behind the build of the JF17.

It is the principal behind the F16---F15---The Gripen The Mirage 3/5's---the Mirage F1---the Mig29's.

Basically a functional and utilitarian form of engineering---.

Always keep in mind " that the wheel has already been invented "---. So---you cannot re-invent the wheel---. You can make it look better---lighter---stronger---durable---.

Now following that principal in its function---you have already gained 50% success in your endeavor right from the gitgo---. Why---because in your planning period---you considered all options and overcame almost all the con cerns---.

You came up with certain design parameters---which you learnt from your association with the americans---the german---the french---.

And you also understood that why those people were successful and you were not was because they spent enough time to analyze discuss and understand the project and once committed---would see thru to the end---.
 
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Metal 0-1

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The FC-31 would of course have full capability to fly over Delhi in night and the pilot would also have ability to take a selfie with Indian Awacs nice up and close
It is argued that the plane could technically fly over India Undetected all the way to Beijing, China of course if the craft's fuel supports that trip
Really... Even Raptor can't do this....
 

Syed1.

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Hi,

Keep It Simple Stupid----. That is the basic american industrial engineering mantra---.

It is the principal behind the build of the JF17.

It is the principal behind the F16---F15---The Gripen The Mirage 3/5's---the Mirage F1---the Mig29's.

Basically a functional and utilitarian form of engineering---.

Always keep in mind " that the wheel has already been invented "---. So---you cannot re-invent the wheel---. You can make it look better---lighter---stronger---durable---.

Now following that principal in its function---you have already gained 50% success in your endeavor right from the gitgo---. Why---because in your planning period---you considered all options and overcame almost all the con cerns---.

You came up with certain design parameters---which you learnt from your association with the americans---the german---the french---.

And you also understood that why those people were successful and you were not was because they spent enough time to analyze discuss and understand the project and once committed---would see thru to the end---.
Well they kicked the bucket on their own KISS mantra when designing the F-35.

Heck they put a vertical engine just for VTOL, that adds useless weight to the aircraft.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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Well they kicked the bucket on their own KISS mantra when designing the F-35.

Heck they put a vertical engine just for VTOL, that adds useless weight to the aircraft.
IMO the F-35 was more of a victim of corporate shiftiness than its own technical issues.

The demonstrator was a solid idea for a fighter capable of both conventional and VTOL operations. It's just that it underwent some development issues after that point. However, many of those issues may have been necessary for the US to maintain its technology edge over others.

Besides, it seems that the F-35 is stabilizing to a relatively competitive price point, e.g., Poland ordering 32 F-35s for like $203 m a unit all-in (not too far from Rafale or Typhoon). Overall, the F-35 got a lot of flack, but it's coming along fairly well now.

Moving forward I don't think the US would develop a single platform for every need. Rather, it'll likely focus on common subsystems (like in the 1980s), but allow for each service to develop a unique solution.
 
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MastanKhan

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Well they kicked the bucket on their own KISS mantra when designing the F-35.

Heck they put a vertical engine just for VTOL, that adds useless weight to the aircraft.
Hi,

Don't be too quick to judge them---. They have set the standards that everyone in the world is chasing after.

Sometimes the wannabe nations get entrapped in what the americans are doing---like spending money on extravagant stuff---. To the ordinary it looks like a wastage---but it is not---.

Just look at the re-birth of the F15---just look at the re-birth of the B-52 bomber---.
 

ziaulislam

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IMO the F-35 was more of a victim of corporate shiftiness than its own technical issues.

The demonstrator was a solid idea for a fighter capable of both conventional and VTOL operations. It's just that it underwent some development issues after that point. However, many of those issues may have been necessary for the US to maintain its technology edge over others.

Besides, it seems that the F-35 is stabilizing to a relatively competitive price point, e.g., Poland ordering 32 F-35s for like $203 m a unit all-in (not too far from Rafale or Typhoon). Overall, the F-35 got a lot of flack, but it's coming along fairly well now.

Moving forward I don't think the US would develop a single platform for every need. Rather, it'll likely focus on common subsystems (like in the 1980s), but allow for each service to develop a unique solution.
USA block orders fell below 100million mark
F35 seems to be cheaper then rafale
Its new launcher will allow it to carry six AIM120 this would slaughter any 4.5 gen fighters as they would have no time to react against the solvo of BVRs..
Wait till the thinner next gen missles come into service ..!!
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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USA block orders fell below 100million mark
F35 seems to be cheaper then rafale
Its new launcher will allow it to carry six AIM120 this would slaughter any 4.5 gen fighters as they would have no time to react against the solvo of BVRs..
Wait till the thinner next gen missles come into service ..!!
Yep...and I doubt the US will go through as many issues with its future next-gen fighters. It is now focusing on simplifying R&D management and design/development (via digital twins etc). The US will hammer us with F-35s plus new (and many) UCAV designs, 5+ and 6-gen fighters, etc.

The world was foolish to think all that $$$ spent on R&D over the decades wasn't going to surface. China just showed that it's a big enough threat for the US to flex again, but that flex is a collective dressing down of UK, France, Germany, and everyone else who thought the US was losing it. Thanks China >_>
 

PDF

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Besides, it seems that the F-35 is stabilizing to a relatively competitive price point, e.g., Poland ordering 32 F-35s for like $203 m a unit all-in (not too far from Rafale or Typhoon).
What is the cost of operating each platfrom per flight hour approximately? That will give a better picture. I am sure 5 Gen jet will certainly be costlier to fly and maintain.
 

Nasr

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The key to defeating the western stealth threat, lay in revolutionary electronic warfare from the ground, sea and air. A country that doesn't have the necessary resources to develop their own stealth fighter program, or have a comprehensively impenetrable Air Defense Network, ought to invest in development of advance electronic warfare systems.
 

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