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S-400 Killer: Vestel Kargi Loitering Munition

Hakikat ve Hikmet

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A secretive loitering munition project is from the Turkish electronic giant Vestel. No official communique so far.

Details (unofficial of course):
  • Specs are the super-set of that of the Israeli Harop (Harpy 2), which were extensively used by Azerbaijan during the liberation of Karaba' to destroy anything with Armenia written over it.
  • Indigenous engine from TEI (PG 50) is in serial production.
  • >1K km range with 2-way communication capability.
  • Low RCS.
  • Hours of loitering time.
  • AI enabled to read electronic signatures and take autonomous decisions.
  • Especially designed to destroy S-300/400/Patriot etc. type major AD systems.


*The Pak General Staffs, I am pretty sure, have all the required GIS (Geographic Information Systems) files pertaining to the North India ready to be uploaded
 
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Mohamed Bin Tughlaq

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A secretive loitering munition project is from the Turkish electronic giant Vestel. No official communique so far.

Details (unofficial of course):
  • Specs are the super-set of that of the Israeli Harop (Harpy 2), which were extensively used by Azerbaijan during the liberation of Karaba' to destroy anything with Armenia written over it.
  • Indigenous engine from TEI (PG 50) is in serial production.
  • >1K km range with 2-way communication capability.
  • Low RCS.
  • Hours of loitering time.
  • AI enabled to read electronic signatures and take autonomous decisions.
  • Especially designed to destroy S-300/400/Patriot etc. type major AD systems.


*Pak General Staffs, I am pretty sure, have all the required GIS (Geographic Information Systems) files pertaining to the North India ready to be uploaded
Is it stealthy avoiding detection or capable of that..
 

Hakikat ve Hikmet

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Is it stealthy avoiding detection or capable of that..
All of the Turkish UAVs are stealthy due to the indigenously fabricated composite materials used in their fuselage. Not to mention the on-board EW and jamming capabilities to nullify enemy radar's detection capabilities. Audio visuals of the destruction of the Russian AD systems in multiple fronts testify to this....

Turkey has a number of composite materials R&D and production facilities. Bayraktar, the manufacturer of TB2/3 and Akinji UAVs, has its own composite materials R&D and production facilities...
 
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T-SaGe

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Layered air defence can take these out easily, like CIWS.
We already have hundreds of Harop and Harpy UCAVs in our stockpile.
This is a rabbit and greyhound story. Both sides are honing their abilities.

For these types counter measures (like CIWS), the concept of wing/swarming and target area saturation of kamikaze drone studies has come to the fore in recent years. That is, a saturation above the total number of threats that countermeasure systems can engage with at critical distance, and the ability to approach with different attack angles of multiple drones in coordination with each other; continues to keep these inexpensive and expendable long range mini drones as a capable SEAD-Optimized loitering munition.

If you are capable of producing this system domestically, lets say, 50 of them will only cost a few tens of million dollars. Of course, its effectiveness in the singular and without part of a wider attack doctrine can be a matter of debate. In any case, compared to sophisticated attack methods for similiar purposes, it still has an incredible cost advantage, which create understandig for their continuous improvement, let alone abandoned them.
 

merzifonlu

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Layered air defence can take these out easily, like CIWS.
We already have hundreds of Harop and Harpy UCAVs in our stockpile.
So why not test what the situation is with a military exercise? Air defense systems alone are not enough, even if they are layered. Additional measures are also required.
 

That Guy

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Layered air defence can take these out easily, like CIWS.
We already have hundreds of Harop and Harpy UCAVs in our stockpile.
Loitering munitions aren't the same as combat drones. Most combat drones aren't considered disposable, loitering munitions are literally meant to destroy both the target and themselves.

The thing is that these are designed to be used in large scale and overwhelm enemy defenses. Its why they're so cheap and disposable.
 
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I guess then Turkey made a big mistake by buying S400 Missile defence system from Russia.

They should have consulted this guy before taking the decision. Also, might this guy helped China before purchasing from Russia....
 

That Guy

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I guess then Turkey made a big mistake by buying S400 Missile defence system from Russia.

They should have consulted this guy before taking the decision. Also, might this guy helped China before purchasing from Russia....
Not really. Turkey actually doesn't care about the s-400 itself, its the technology they're after. Remember, they tried to buy a Chinese Air Defense system before this, which had previously surprisingly won a competition against both the s-400 and the patriot air defense systems. The only reason why that didn't go through was due to China refusing a ToT, and US pressure. Before that, a similar situation with the American Patriot system, which the US overcharged for, didn't want to sell more than a handful of, and refused to give even a partial ToT, not to mention it would be entirely under the control of US personnel.

Russia was the only real option left for Turkey to get its hands on an advanced air defense system and its technology, which would boost both Turkey's air defenses, as well as Turkey's domestic efforts to develop a SAM and ADS on its own.
 

hyperman

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Layered air defence can take these out easily, like CIWS.
they can't Pantsirs getting picked off by the israeli and turkish drone strikes should have been an indication. Loitering munition in a swarm in addition to a sophisticated Electronic Warfare suite can do massive damage.

I guess then Turkey made a big mistake by buying S400 Missile defence system from Russia.

They should have consulted this guy before taking the decision. Also, might this guy helped China before purchasing from Russia....
its a cat and mouse game, there is no perfect counter. the s-400 isn't really as effective unless it is part of a layered strategy. you build a system, then a counter measure system is made to defeat that system, then the previous system is updated to be more resistant to the counter measure system, at which point the counter measure system is updated to have a more sophisticated approach.
 

IblinI

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they can't Pantsirs getting picked off by the israeli and turkish drone strikes should have been an indication. Loitering munition in a swarm in addition to a sophisticated Electronic Warfare suite can do massive damage.



its a cat and mouse game, there is no perfect counter. the s-400 isn't really as effective unless it is part of a layered strategy. you build a system, then a counter measure system is made to defeat that system, then the previous system is updated to be more resistant to the counter measure system, at which point the counter measure system is updated to have a more sophisticated approach.
the current range of loitering munition are less than 100km, most of them being less than 20km, unless the enemies are stupid, no one can get to that range of a S400 site.
 
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the current range of loitering munition are less than 100km, most of them being less than 20km, unless the enemies are stupid, no one can get to that range of a S400 site.
No one going to deployed at the border as we talk about India.... It is basically purchased to protect our major cities.

Other missile defence systems is and will be deployed at the borders.
 

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