What's new

Rocket failure delays US hypersonic glide missile test in Alaska after China fired second missile 'that defies the laws of physics'

gambit

PROFESSIONAL
Apr 28, 2009
26,386
139
24,464
Country
United States
Location
United States
This CVN is so advanced that it has never participated a single war exercise since it's commission in 2017.
Because the reputation of the American carriers are established enough that even our prototypes are scary. :enjoy:

See post 10? Objective analyses would put US ahead of China in terms of applications of hypersonic vehicles. China have not contributed to the science and crafts of warfare for over 300 yrs. So we, meaning the world, are not going to see anything different WHEN we roll out our hypersonic PLATFORMS.
 

LeGenD

MODERATOR
Aug 28, 2006
13,295
107
16,370
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
u.s. really needs to stop trying. the more it tries, the more it makes a total fool out of itself.
Neutrally speaking, failures are expected in "prototyping." These matters are simply less publicized in some countries. A reliable machine cannot be developed until it is tested and stress-tested repeatedly.

C-HGB is the most accurate Hypersonic weapon system in the world. It was successfully launched from a ballistic missile in previous test.

This test probably feature a different type of launcher more in line with the Dark Eagle design.
 

Beast

ELITE MEMBER
Feb 5, 2011
28,108
-41
64,208
Country
China
Location
China
Because the reputation of the American carriers are established enough that even our prototypes are scary. :enjoy:

See post 10? Objective analyses would put US ahead of China in terms of applications of hypersonic vehicles. China have not contributed to the science and crafts of warfare for over 300 yrs. So we, meaning the world, are not going to see anything different WHEN we roll out our hypersonic PLATFORMS.
Right , just like Boeing reputation as passenger airliner are so well established that B737 Max 8 tragic can happened. Now nobody want to get Max 8. Nobody trust Boeing new product.

It is also this mentality that tragic of CVN Gerald Ford happened too. American brag about their past glory and forget about hardwork needed to put into new product. :enjoy:
 

Daniel808

SENIOR MEMBER
Nov 24, 2013
4,654
-7
17,112
Country
Indonesia
Location
Indonesia
24 miles is not accurate enough for Non nuclear weapons. It need to be more accurate.

This craft safely landed in Badanjilin Airport in Inner Mongolia. How can it miss 24 miles 😑

Typical stupid american propaganda media

FB_IIFjXoAcyfj3.jpg
 

Thorough Pro

ELITE MEMBER
Aug 23, 2008
13,206
-19
12,957
Country
Pakistan
Location
Canada
This forum is 50% idiots and 49% trolls, the remaining 1% don't get into such petty things. Not sure who proved it, but can you direct me to any such "proof"


It has been proven on this forum that the Chinese members lacks critical thinking skills and your comment is further evidence of that.
 

F-22Raptor

ELITE MEMBER
Jun 19, 2014
11,231
2
14,987
Country
United States
Location
United States
This was only an issue with the booster.

The HGV itself has already proven to fly at 4,000km at Mach 17 with 6in accuracy. This HGV is the most advanced in the world.
Thanks. Seems I missed that one.
It's scramjet, but not much detail revealed. No range, no how many seconds it last.


The scramjet flew over Mach 5 at 350 miles.
China has a lot more nukes than 320. That figure has never been verified and it was an estimate from over 30 years ago. China has never denied or confirmed how many nukes it has, but I think we all know there is a massive buildup going on right now. I would be very surprised if China doesn't currently have at least 1000 warheads in stock. Most likely they will be building towards parity with the US and Russia.

The US is behind in the hypersonic missile field. This, like many other fields, in fact, countless other fields, is a result of major miscalculations and a lack of strategic focus brought on by being distracted by two decades of the War on Terror, where a small group of neocons basically dictated American foreign policy to wash money into the military industrial complex and destroy Israel's enemies by destroying Muslim countries.

The US will likely be able to field a hypersonic missile system within the next 5 years, but China and Russia won't stop developing theirs. In fact, China is building massive infrastructure and wind tunnels that will be able to test Mach 10 hypersonic vehicles and missiles, while the US currently only has infrastructure to test up to Mach 5. Let's not even mention the fact that China and Russia are essentially allies, and these are the two most powerful hypersonic powers. The US is very outmatched in this regard.


Once again, this was only an issue with the booster and not the HGV. This HGV has already flown at 4,000km at Mach 17 with 6in accuracy. Its the most advanced HGV in the world.

The US also recently successfully tested a hypersonic cruise missile over Mach 5 at 350 miles. You are a bit clueless.
 
Last edited:

Daniel808

SENIOR MEMBER
Nov 24, 2013
4,654
-7
17,112
Country
Indonesia
Location
Indonesia
A Declining (usa) vs A Rising one (China) :coffee:

2021 USA achievement :
1. Covid deaths champion
2. Keep extending the blackhole debt ceiling
3. Humiliated by Poor Taliban
4. Failed Hypersonic missile tests
5. Anymore?


Interesting time ahead for sure
 
Last edited:

serenity

FULL MEMBER
Jan 9, 2007
1,681
0
4,090
Country
China
Location
Australia
No one here knows which country is ahead in HGV.

US HGV has two known weapon types and those are HAWC and ARRW programs. Both of them are scramjet powered small missiles similar to Russian Zircon. The one that was launched in this thread's article is another type that is ground launched and a glider. I think it would be a very different type maybe similar to the Chinese HGV from DF-17 booster type HGV. This weapon is in service and completed development and testing years ago. The American one is in testing. Or the Long March 2 or LM-3 boosted ones which would be smaller than rocket fairing. Or possibly the DF-15 one althoguh DF-15 is a much smaller booster which suggests it is carrying HGV similar in size to something like Zircon or HAWC.

The recent Chinese global flight was yet another type and all of them separate to DF-ZF HGV. The Chinese tests also have a hypersonic vehicle that lands and has done two flight tests that landed. Mach 24 speed for one of those Chinese HGV platforms is the disclosed speed achieved, again for one type and they never said which. Not sure if the recent global flight one is of the reusable vehicle or a weapon or FOBS plus HGV weapon.

There are so many Chinese hypersonic project ranging from electronic warfare purpose HGV to nuclear delivery and also some are reusable craft and now suspected FOBS plus HGV weapon. I think many of these overlap and are the same ones and flexibility use. Vehicle is obviously modular and propulsion uses scramjets, sodramjets or some combined cycle if any propulsion.

There are also "cruise missile" types like DF-100.

Just like AI industry, so much of these hypersonic weapons and vehicles are secretive for now and it's impossible to say which country is ahead however the US is still working on HAWC, ARRW, and this glider. China has since at least 2019 put into service DF-17 boosted HGV and also DF-15 boosted smaller HGV weapon which hit target within less than a few meters CEP back in August. The hypersonic reusable craft seems to be in testing, the FOBS plus HGV could be one of the same as one of these or simply invented by the US and in reality the Chinese side was just testing a reusable vehicle that is not a weapon. Nuclear delivery HGV would be the highest priority and first to be developed and put into service if lower priority ones already in service since 2019.

DF-15 boosted HGV in service missile test in August.

1634904572630.png



1634904593133.png
 

serenity

FULL MEMBER
Jan 9, 2007
1,681
0
4,090
Country
China
Location
Australia
We know US has weapon associated programs for HGV, three disclosed types that they always do report on with some transparency, certainly more than China offers.

China has unknown number of hypersonic programs but two known in service types of weapons systems. I suggest nuclear delivery was first to get done and so more than those two publicly given types.

As for new flight tests, there is the global reach one whether that is as US claims, a weapon for nuclear delivery or as China claims a commercial space launching system we don't know. The other flight tests in this year was a DF-15 booster test and many actually occur but only few are reported by China or USA about Chinese tests. In fact these hypersonic weapons and flights patterns at night have been appearing quite a few times and even one interception test that we know of during this year. China doesn't report on many except the DF-15 one as part of state media just doing typical military affairs updates to say PLARF are equipped with "new kinds of fast missiles". That's it that's all they want to say but then USA reveals the hypersonic tests China has been doing.

China just does typical once a few months military affairs updates on state media reporting on these things and mention no details except to say high supersonic aka in Chinese also hypersonic definition, and new missiles in use.

The truly interesting one out of all these American and Chinese platforms and tests is the Chinese recent flight of global ranged. Now the leaked details suggest the flight was actually inside the atmosphere not in space except at most during one point and then quick re-entry and then the whole time it is flying within atmosphere. This is not some breaking of physics at all. Clearly it is achievable.

This thing is claimed by some as aircraft that lands since we know China performed at least one officially announced landing of hypersonic aircraft in this year. So is the October or September flight of the same thing or something totally different and is a FOBS plus HGV weapon like USA is suggesting it is. Whatever the case, this is the most impressive feat so far and the one demonstrated and done. Global flight within atmosphere with reported speeds of Mach 24 I assume as max velocity reached. Either it is a weapon and aimed into missile testing fields or it is the same hypersonic aircraft program which landed before and this is simply a global flight of the same platform.
 

gambit

PROFESSIONAL
Apr 28, 2009
26,386
139
24,464
Country
United States
Location
United States
Right , just like Boeing reputation as passenger airliner are so well established that B737 Max 8 tragic can happened. Now nobody want to get Max 8. Nobody trust Boeing new product.

It is also this mentality that tragic of CVN Gerald Ford happened too. American brag about their past glory and forget about hardwork needed to put into new product. :enjoy:
Let us take a look at China's latest prototype weapon...

U2LwoEV.jpg


The ICBM is boost-dive method. China's just tested the boost-glide method. Are there any conceptual advancement here? None.

A conceptual advancement is one that irrevocably changed warfare, meaning if you do not have said weapon, you will most likely lose the war. Not guaranteed, just most likely you will lose. Guerrilla warfare is in a different type of warfare, so we do not consider that here.

The horse changed warfare. The horse enabled the soldier to be faster, stronger, more mobile, and with greater combat range. The bow and arrow gave greater lethal distance. Gunpowder, the rifle, the machine gun, aviation, and many other too long to list, all changed warfare past the point of no return.

There is a difference between a conceptual advancement vs a process/engineering advancement. The water cooled machine gun was a P/E advancement. The water jacket compensated for a problem of overheating gun barrel but did not alter the repeating cycling method itself.

China's latest prototype missile used the rocket boost method. Nothing spectacular there. Then the vehicle used gravity assist to gain Mach 5+ or hypersonic speed. NASA lifting body designs back in the 1960s-70s done that and the Space Shuttle reentry speed was almost Mach 25. So this Chinese prototype did not even expand any current knowledge with its gliding body. The tactical advantage here is that by traveling in a horizontal path and making at least one orbit, the weapon rendered its final destination unknown to current external estimation methods, aka 'guesses'.

On the other hand, DARPA's Hypersonic Air-breathing Weapon Concept (HAWC) vehicle...


Sept. 27, 2021
The engine “kicked on” seconds after being released from an aircraft, which DARPA and the Air Force declined to identify, although DARPA expressed appreciation to “Navy flight test personnel.” The Navy has been conducting hypersonic missile research with F/A-18 aircraft.
The engine “compressed incoming air mixed with its hydrocarbon fuel and began igniting that fast-moving airflow mixture, propelling the cruiser at a speed greater than Mach 5,” DARPA said. In order for the scramjet engine to ignite, the vehicle must be moving at hypersonic speed, so a booster is used for that portion of the flight.
All of the “primary” goals of the test flight were achieved, including “vehicle integration and release sequence, safe separation from the launch aircraft, booster ignition and boost, booster separation and engine ignition, and cruise.”​
The HAWC is exploring air-breathing hypersonic flight in parallel with the Air Force’s AGM-183A Air-launched Rapid-Response Weapon (ARRW), which is accelerated to hypersonic speed by a rocket before being released and gliding toward its target.​
...Is a true conceptual advancement of the hypersonic vehicle.

The US version eliminated the ballistic rocket boost method and instead rely on a parent launch aircraft, which immediately made the weapon more tactically responsive to varying needs. It also rendered the weapon essentially undetectable by current satellite reconnaissance, unlike ballistic missiles that will be detected upon launch from surface.

The propulsion method is a P/E advancement. The SR-71 J58 engine is essentially a turbojet mated to a ramjet. The HAWC engine replaced turbojet with a rocket booster to push the vehicle to Mach 5+ speed then the scramjet takes over and sustain that speed. So unlike China's hypersonic missle that uses gravity, the HAWC vehicle have a true engine.

Now, with the US version of the hypersonic weapon, there are POTENTIAL variations that cannot exist in the Chinese version.

The ramjet have been known to operate subsonic speed, at airliner altitude, and even lower. But in order to sustain operation, inlet airspeed must be constant or the engine dies. Lower altitude means higher air density which produces higher drag which mean lower inlet airspeed which would kill the engine. That mean a scramjet design is pretty much restricted to a certain range of altitude.


This optimal climb/descent profile is called a "constant dynamic pressure path".​
So how low of altitude can a scramjet maintain Mach 5+ ? Unknown at this time. But it does raise an interesting possibility with using an air breathing hypersonic vehicle where there could be custom hypersonic missiles designed for specific altitude to avoid air defense radars. The Chinese hypersonic missile do not glide in full atmosphere but in sub-orbital altitude where it will be detected. An air breathing hypersonic missile design for a specific altitude and being air launched will be far less vulnerable.
 

LeGenD

MODERATOR
Aug 28, 2006
13,295
107
16,370
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Electric catapult

Electric railgun

ICBM

MRL

Hypersonic missile


Maybe you want to claim US 5G is also ahead of China.
Hmm.

Please allow me to expand on these themes for general knowledge sake.

Electric catapult

USA have deployed and extensively tested EMALS on Ford class.


China have tested EMALS on land but not on an aircraft carrier yet. China will deploy EMALS on Type 003 which is under development.



Verdict: USA seems to have advantage in this area.

Electric railgun

USA tested a prototype on land but pulled the plug in favor of alternatives.



China have deployed a prototype on a ship.


Verdict: China seems to have advantage in this area.

ICBM

American ICBM inventory is massive, and Trident II D5 SLBM is one of the most advanced with sophisticated MiRV capability (~14 warheads). This SLBM is also extensively tested for reliability. Accuracy is significantly improved with superfuze technology.





China managed to close the gap in terms of technology with the impressive DF-41 ICBM in 2017. This ICBM also have sophisticated MiRV capability (~10 warheads). CEP is on par with Trident II D5 SLBM minus superfuze technology.


Verdict: USA seems to have advantage in this area. China have closed the gap with DF-41, nevertheless.

MRL

You mean MRLS?

Chinese MRLS are PHL-03 and PHL-16 respectively. PHL-16 is recent and multi-munition capable.



PHL-16 can be equipped with Fire Dragon 480 TBM and TL-7B ASCM respectively.

American MRLS are M270 and M142 HIMARS respectively. Both are multi-munition capable and incredibly accurate.

Both can be equipped with MGM-140 ATACMS and PrSM respectively. PrSM will replace MGM-140 ATACMS in fact.



Former USSR and USA had INF treaty in times of Reagon administration due to which USA did not develop different types of missiles with both nuclear and tactical applications (TBM - IRBM). USA under Trump administration ditched INF treaty in 2019 due to concerns that Russia was not following it to the letter.


Due to INF treaty, China had the opportunity to outrange USA in the MRLS regime with PHL-16. This advantage will not last, however.

Verdict: China seems to have advantage in this area with PHL-16. But USA is about to bridge this gap.

Hypersonic missile

China developed, tested and fielded MRBM class DF-17 HGV for military applications in 2019. CEP is 'within meters' which is good enough for large stationary targets.


China launched an HGV prototype from an orbital platform to see how it works in this case. The test was successful but HGV suffered degradation in accuracy. China have denied a test of this nature.

It shall be noted that the USSR introduced the concept of Fractional Orbital Bombardment System (FOBS) but dropped it. China attempted the same but also dropped it.



USA developed and tested an ICBM class HGV prototype in 2010 and 2011 respectively. It is identified as the DARPA Falcon HTV-2.


USA dropped Falcon HTV-2 project for unknown reasons but developed (and testing) a new ICBM class HGV identified as C-HGB. This is the most accurate HGV design by far.


C-HGB was successfully tested two times with STARS ballistic missile launch system in 2017 (FE-1) and 2020 (FE-2) respectively.

USA have developed (and testing) an MRBM class HGV identified as ARRW and a hypersonic cruise missile identified as HAWC respectively.



Verdict: China managed to operationalize MRBM class HGV capability before USA.

5G

South Korea is the first country to explore 5G ICT technology concepts back in 2008.

Chinese company Huawei outpaced other companies by developing and deploying 5G ICT technology on large scale, however.



USA launched a campaign to counter-check global market share of Huawei, however.





Verdict: China outpaced others in developing and deploying 5G ICT on large scale. USA is attempting to erode this advantage with its Carrot and Stick Foreign Policy, and two American companies Apple and Ericsson seem to gain from this dynamic lately.
 

Viet

ELITE MEMBER
Jun 18, 2012
25,508
0
18,520
Country
Viet Nam
Location
Germany
If I remember right, it failed again and again, not a single success. Please correct me if I missed any successful test.
Trials and error is common. You develop a prototype then test it. If 1 succeeds in 100 failures then you won. Only super aquaman is capable to do 100 success in 100 trials.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 1, Members: 0, Guests: 1)


Top Bottom