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Recent CPEC JCC meeting; Pakistani objectives appear to be unmet

Pak Nationalist

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You need to be patient my friend, time is money with CPEC. Definition of investment:-" An investment is a purchase that is completed with money that has the potential to produce income or a profit. ... Investing is the act of putting forth capital with the expectation of income or profit. Personal investing is buying financial securities or property for the purpose of making a profit."(https://www.m1finance.com/articles-2/what-is-an-investment/)

CPEC 1.0 is infrastructure investment , CPEC 2.0 is Industrial wealth generation. CPEC 3.0 will be Cultural wealth generation. There will be so much much money floating around people will be spending more time on leisure and vacations.
That's the entire point of contention. CPEC 2.0 is 3 years late already, with no signs of it on the horizon. My post was around that concern, and JCC did not take it up. Had we even achieved something substantive in this regard at the end of the recent JCC, I would not have made this thread. Without CPEC 2.0, we would have a whole lot of roads, power (overcapacity and ensuant capacity charges driving up our fiscal deficit and circular debt), and little hard cash to pay for the debt we took to set up all this physical infrastructure. Heck, even now 1.5 billion USD of stuck-up payment to Chinese IPPs under the head of circular debt are being made with immediate effect. How much of that would be due to capacity charges due to take or pay agreements? This is the extent to which we have been unable to get any concessions while accepting all demands of the other side.
 

CriticalThought

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That's the entire point of contention. CPEC 2.0 is 3 years late already, with no signs of it on the horizon. My post was around that concern, and JCC did not take it up. Had we even achieved something substantive in this regard at the end of the recent JCC, I would not have made this thread. Without CPEC 2.0, we would have a whole lot of roads, power (overcapacity and ensuant capacity charges driving up our fiscal deficit and circular debt), and little hard cash to pay for the debt we took to set up all this physical infrastructure. Heck, even now 1.5 billion USD of stuck-up payment to Chinese IPPs under the head of circular debt are being made with immediate effect. How much of that would be due to capacity charges due to take or pay agreements? This is the extent to which we have been unable to get any concessions while accepting all demands of the other side.
It's late because of dilly dallying by Imran Khan's government. Ask him why he has created roadblocks? It is also late because of the situation in Baluchistan. Have you noticed the recent announcement regarding Karachi Coastal Development? Because your incompetent Khan and Bajwa have been unable to control the security situation, it looks like the Chinese have had to shift focus. Instead of identifying where problems originate, why are you trying to shift the blame on others?
 

khansaheeb

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That's the entire point of contention. CPEC 2.0 is 3 years late already, with no signs of it on the horizon. My post was around that concern, and JCC did not take it up. Had we even achieved something substantive in this regard at the end of the recent JCC, I would not have made this thread. Without CPEC 2.0, we would have a whole lot of roads, power (overcapacity and ensuant capacity charges driving up our fiscal deficit and circular debt), and little hard cash to pay for the debt we took to set up all this physical infrastructure. Heck, even now 1.5 billion USD of stuck-up payment to Chinese IPPs under the head of circular debt are being made with immediate effect. How much of that would be due to capacity charges due to take or pay agreements? This is the extent to which we have been unable to get any concessions while accepting all demands of the other side.
Is that late on the CPEC clock or your clock? It may be a step at a time with humans but in economics it is decade at a time! These are colossal projects and will take colossal time. I can understand your impatience but no one said it will bring fortunes to you in your lifespan, but who knows pray to the almighty and hope for the best.
 

Pak Nationalist

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It's late because of dilly dallying by Imran Khan's government. Ask him why he has created roadblocks? It is also late because of the situation in Baluchistan. Have you noticed the recent announcement regarding Karachi Coastal Development? Because your incompetent Khan and Bajwa have been unable to control the security situation, it looks like the Chinese have had to shift focus. Instead of identifying where problems originate, why are you trying to shift the blame on others?
The blame lies with the lousiest possible negotiation of the projects when CPEC was launched, and it also lies with dilly-dallying on CPEC 2.0. It also lies on the Chinese if they are looking for short-term commercial benefits rather than the larger picture and how a more prosperous Pakistan would be in their interest.
Is that late on the CPEC clock or your clock? It may be a step at a time with humans but in economics it is decade at a time! These are colossal projects and will take colossal time. I can understand your impatience but no one said it will bring fortunes to you in your lifespan, but who knows pray to the almighty and hope for the best.
CPEC 2.0 was to begin as soon as the generation capacity was increased to put load shedding to an end. This happened back in 2018.
 
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khansaheeb

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The blame lies with the lousiest possible negotiation of the projects when CPEC was launched, and it also lies with dilly-dallying on CPEC 2.0. It also lies on the Chinese if they are looking for short-term commercial benefits rather than the larger picture and how a more prosperous Pakistan would be in its interest.

CPEC 2.0 was to begin as soon as the generation capacity was increased to put load shedding to an end. This happened back in 2018.
Don't know where you live but load shedding still happens in Sindh/Karachi.
 

CriticalThought

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The blame lies with the lousiest possible negotiation of the projects when CPEC was launched, and it also lies with dilly-dallying on CPEC 2.0. It also lies on the Chinese if they are looking for short-term commercial benefits rather than the larger picture and how a more prosperous Pakistan would be in its interest.
You should read the World Bank report on IPPs in Sub-Saharan Africa. It says to the effect "Investment doesn't automatically come where there is need. Investment comes where there is a prospect of realizing returns". It is as simple as that. The Chinese factored in economic instability, political instability, and security instability. You were unable to negotiate. You were unable to lure alternate investors so you can play the two against each other. It is your own fault.
 

HammerHead081

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CPEC is so called flagship project of China's BRI, they have endless streams of money yet they are refusing to negotiate to take up any little loss (literally these losses are nothing for them). No transfer of industries. Just making complete clowns out of us, what are they even thinking?
 

CriticalThought

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CPEC is so called flagship project of China's BRI, they have endless streams of money yet they are refusing to negotiate to take up any little loss (literally these losses are nothing for them). No transfer of industries. Just making complete clowns out of us, what are they even thinking?
What was your Prime Minister thinking when he called CPEC a conspiracy and halted its advance? Do you know the Chinese have shared reservations about Imran Khan's closest associates because of their American ties? They have been asked to leave high level meetings because China considers them a security threat? You should be thankful China is even willing to engage with us right now. You Prime Minister is a traitor who has sabotaged CPEC.
 

Pak Nationalist

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You should read the World Bank report on IPPs in Sub-Saharan Africa. It says to the effect "Investment doesn't automatically come where there is need. Investment comes where there is a prospect of realizing returns". It is as simple as that. The Chinese factored in economic instability, political instability, and security instability. You were unable to negotiate. You were unable to lure alternate investors so you can play the two against each other. It is your own fault.
I have noted that repeatedly in the comments above. The deals were not negotiated by the incumbents.
What was your Prime Minister thinking when he called CPEC a conspiracy and halted its advance? Do you know the Chinese have shared reservations about Imran Khan's closest associates because of their American ties? They have been asked to leave high level meetings because China considers them a security threat? You should be thankful China is even willing to engage with us right now. You Prime Minister is a traitor who has sabotaged CPEC.
CPEC was called a conspiracy? Where and when? Which close allies do you refer to? The Papa Jones fame Bajwa? Installing excess capacity and subjecting the country to capacity payments for years is not a national service either.
 

CriticalThought

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I have noted that repeatedly in the comments above. The deals were not negotiated by the incumbents.
But the incumbents must have thought about these 'ensnaring, albatross around the neck type of contracts' when they were sending off Nawaz Sharif for treatment in London, no? Imran Khan must have had a heart attack thinking about the atrocity of CPEC contracts when making the decision, no?
 

CriticalThought

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CPEC was called a conspiracy? Where and when? Which close allies do you refer to? The Papa Jones fame Bajwa? Installing excess capacity and subjecting the country to capacity payments for years is not a national service either.
You should listen to Dr. Shahid Masood. He has repeatedly said this on his program that China has reservations about Imran Khan's closest associates. He has never shared the name, but if I were to make a wild guess, it could be Zulfi Bukhari. Dr. Masood says the associate is allowed to sit in high level meetings which have nothing to do with him.

I use the word 'conspiracy' to describe what Imran Khan, government effectively did:

Last month, the prime minister’s commerce advisor was quoted by the Financial Times as saying that the CPEC “unfairly benefits Chinese companies” and suggested that such projects could be put on hold for a year to review the terms of agreement. However, the advisor later stated that his words were taken out of context.
That excess capacity was meant for CPEC 2.0 which Imran Khan has stalled. And now people like you are mushrooming to criticize the Chinese. You sowed the seeds of the problem, and are now chest beating when the problem has fully surfaced. Shame on you.
 

khansaheeb

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CPEC is so called flagship project of China's BRI, they have endless streams of money yet they are refusing to negotiate to take up any little loss (literally these losses are nothing for them). No transfer of industries. Just making complete clowns out of us, what are they even thinking?
It's called business and China expects Pakistan to bring it's financial house in order. Good, China is being tough, the corrupt Pakistani are still lingering onto free money and find it easy to hold the begging bowl.
 

Pak Nationalist

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You should listen to Dr. Shahid Masood. He has repeatedly said this on his program that China has reservations about Imran Khan's closest associates. He has never shared the name, but if I were to make a wild guess, it could be Zulfi Bukhari. Dr. Masood says the associate is allowed to sit in high level meetings which have nothing to do with him.

I use the word 'conspiracy' to describe what Imran Khan, government effectively did:



That excess capacity was meant for CPEC 2.0 which Imran Khan has stalled. And now people like you are mushrooming to criticize the Chinese. You sowed the seeds of the problem, and are now chest beating when the problem has fully surfaced. Shame on you.
Such a credible reference. No wonder you are coming with such fertile ideas. The male nurse SM has that effect on people. If you read my comments, I have also noted above how progress on CPEC 2.0 has stalled with the causes for that unknown. Chinese were only unhappy with one person, and they made their displeasure known publicly, who is the current industries minister/advisor. Dawood had made some controversial remarks about CPEC's industrial component before PTI came to power. Does the male nurse talk about who had Papa Jones Bajwa installed? I highly doubt he would name his paymasters. For the lack of progress on CPEC 2.0, I have not "blamed" the Chinese, and I have noted that I am ambivalent about the culprit.
You should listen to Dr. Shahid Masood. He has repeatedly said this on his program that China has reservations about Imran Khan's closest associates. He has never shared the name, but if I were to make a wild guess, it could be Zulfi Bukhari. Dr. Masood says the associate is allowed to sit in high level meetings which have nothing to do with him.

I use the word 'conspiracy' to describe what Imran Khan, government effectively did:



That excess capacity was meant for CPEC 2.0 which Imran Khan has stalled. And now people like you are mushrooming to criticize the Chinese. You sowed the seeds of the problem, and are now chest beating when the problem has fully surfaced. Shame on you.
On the one hand, you heap scorn on me, on the other, give love reacts to what I said, lol. Confusing. I am discussing various scenarios under this post and picking people's minds about what they think is happening. Please go through my comments. I am mentioning many things you said (barring the conspiracy theories you seem to have internalized from the preeminent fountainhead of those in Pakistan, aka male nurse who passes himself off as a journo) and at the same time asking questions on the line of possible impatience or shortsightedness on the Chinese side. I have no absolute positions on either. This is an exercise of instigating a discussion where people discuss both possibilities and try to synthesize.
 
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CriticalThought

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Such a credible reference. No wonder you are coming with such fertile ideas. The male nurse SM has that effect on people. If you read my comments, I have also noted above how progress on CPEC 2.0 has stalled with the causes for that unknown. Chinese were only unhappy with one person, and they made their displeasure is known publicly, which was the current industries minister/advisor. He had made some controversial remarks about CPEC's industrial component before PTI came to power. Does the male nurse talk about who had Papa Jones Bajwa installed? I highly doubt he would name his paymasters. For the lack of progress on CPEC 2.0, I have not "blamed" the Chinese, and I have noted that I am ambivalent about the culprit.

On the one hand, you heap scorn on me, on the other, give love reacts to what I said, lol. Confusing. I am discussing various scenarios under this post and picking people's minds about what they think is happening. Please go through my comments. I am mentioning many things you said (barring the conspiracy theories you seem to have internalized from the preeminent fountainhead of those in Pakistan, aka male nurse who passes himself off as a journo) and at the same time asking questions on the line of possible impatience or shortsightedness on the Chinese side. I have no absolute positions on either. This is an exercise of instigating a discussion where people discuss both possibilities and try to synthesize.
So your entire counter-argument relies on calling Dr. Shahid Masood a male nurse. How pathetic.

Normal people look at emojis and interpret them as reactions to content. You on the other hand take them personally. Too much diversity can do that. If we got a CT scan your brain might have ten thousand pieces instead of two hemispheres. Keep making a fool out of yourself.
 

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