• Wednesday, September 18, 2019

Re-organization of Chinar Division (theoretical)

Discussion in 'Pakistan Army' started by TF141, Sep 10, 2019.

  1. TF141

    TF141 FULL MEMBER

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    As most folks here would know, the 12th Infantry Division, headquartered at Murree, is the largest division-sized formation in the army, with some 6 infantry brigades under it. The formation belongs to X Corps, and has a vital task of offense-defense in Azad Kashmir, with it's current AoR stretching from Kel to Tattapani (Poonch).

    I wanted to propose an idea for creation of a new Div HQ by splitting this oversized formation, to improve division of labour and enhance the combat effectiveness of the X Corps.

    The Div HQ can be at Muzaffarabad or Mansehra, while it's AoR can stretch along the line Leepa-Athmuqam-Kel. This is vital since IA has raised it's 28th Mountain Division, HQed at Gurez Valley, and IA has tactical advantage in this sector (along Neelum Valley). Hence a new Div HQ is crucial as the sector here is sensitive.

    The 12th Div, now at normal numbers, can be adjusted along it's new AoR i.e. Hattian Bala/Chakothi - Bagh - Rawalakot axis.

    The 34th Light Infantry Division should/is the Corps strategic reserve, it plugs in the gaps along the LoC during escalation/wartime.

    @Signalian
    @Gryphon

    feel free for suggestions/objections.
     
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  2. Zulfiqar

    Zulfiqar FULL MEMBER

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    While many areas of kashmir may not be of that high altitude (relative to our northern areas/kargil) but the lessons stated in below paper can be employed here as well.

    Artillery. I don't know how many guns do we have to support that division but more batteries and mortars will be preferred. Especially if they have guided munitions.

    It would be better if you reconstitute the divisions and back them up with more firepower (via more organic guided howitzers and mortars) and better company/platoon level aerial recon ability.

    We need to employ more net-centric warfare in that area (if not being done already).


    upload_2019-9-10_19-36-50.png

    https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a417318.pdf
     
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  3. TF141

    TF141 FULL MEMBER

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    Agreed but these are secondary. Organizational reforms should have top priority.
     
  4. Ghost 125

    Ghost 125 FULL MEMBER

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    3 + 3 will still make 6 (brigades), unless number of brigades are raised i dont see any difference it can make or benfit of dividing it. As an example when FC balochistan and FC KP were divided into FC KP north/south and FC Balochistan north/south, dozens of new wings were also raised to cover gaps in western border.
     
  5. TF141

    TF141 FULL MEMBER

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    Strength is not the problem here. The Chinar Division is oversized and hence I am pretty sure it won't be able to conduct operations with the efficiency of a normal infantry division, no matter which career redtape will command it. Increasing HQs will make operation conduction/chain of command/ order execution more fluid.

    Same problem happened in 1971, when we had I Corps oversized and assigned with both offensive and defensive tasks. The Corps utterly failed and it's commander was vehemently criticized.
    Afterwards, XXX Corps was formed, and it took over the defensive tasks of the I Corps, which could now purely focus on offensive ops. Numbers did not change.

    The more structured your chain of command is, the more oiled your organization will be, and hence lesser friction in wartime.
     
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  6. WarKa DaNG

    WarKa DaNG FULL MEMBER

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    How about forming some Regimental Combat Teams in it !!??
     
  7. Signalian

    Signalian SENIOR MEMBER

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    Forming a new division means throwing in extra troops in a terrain which is already manned by required strength. 12th Division should be termed Mountain Division instead of Infantry Division. A new Division would require more Divisional formations for Supply, Engineers, Signals etc and also formation of new HQ's like a new Div HQ, a new Arty Bde HQ, new Air Defence Command etc. This would also mean that X-Corps would need to induct more units to give Corps to Divisional support, since during the war 12th Division and the newly raised Division will have different objectives to achieve and Corps HQ will need to ensure that both Divs get required support from it. If 12th Infantry Division was employed in plains or desert, it would have been convenient to split up for better mobility and also increase the AOR. X-Corps is also commanding FCNA way up north, whose AOR is even larger than that of 12th Inf Div, but the terrain becomes even worse there.

    In mountain warfare, the unit size and strength could be lower than that of a unit operating in plains or desert. This is due to nature of terrain. In mountains, a company strength can defend an area twice the size that a company strength could do in plains. For advance, mobility is required, natural cover is already there in the form of trees, shrubs, bushes, rocks, reverse slopes etc which is not available in plains or desert.

    12th Infantry Division has performed well in both 1965 and 1971 wars, there were set backs in 1999 but that was not Division's fault. This means formation structure is performing well in mountain terrain. If a need arises, an Ad-Hoc Divisional HQ can be set up and units from 12th Infantry Div put under its Command, just like the set up in 1971, 36 and 39 Ad Hoc Div HQ's but that only decreased the capacity to fight as an independent formation. Back in 1965, During Operation GrandSlam, the Division advanced a good margin into IOK against Indian Army, the 'fault' remained with its Commander's religion in eyes of GHQ, how can an Ahmadi General be hailed as a hero for leading a successful campaign into Kashmir, it had to be a pure Muslim, absurd, the pure Muslim General was found as Yahya Khan, who ruined the whole Operation. It was said that Commander 12th Infantry Division abandoned a few posts so he was replaced by Yahya Khan, where as Yahya Khan made blunder after blunder eventually failed the Ops. The combat effectiveness of the Division was again seen in 1971 war, where it advanced inside IOK yet again forcing Indian forces to retreat to rear HQ's. Elements of 12th Infantry Division then took part in Kargil war and made numerous advances into IOK and dogged resistance to IA's attacks, until the order for withdrawal arrived and the disaster began. I dont see how the combat effectiveness has been affected in any way due to its large size.

    34th LID's main task is securing routes for CPEC, its is spread at different areas overlooking CPEC routes. It can only be shifted from its main task once its ensured that CPEC routes have become safe and the Paramilitary and Police can now look after CPEC routes satisfactorily. That is when the 9 x Regular Infantry Regiments can be pulled out from internal security duties and then wither of below:

    1. Deployed to Over-look North Western border, as well as Swat
    2. Attached with FCNA
    3. Provide as Strategic Reserve for X-Corps in case of war. 7th Infantry Division has to be attached to X-Corps in case of war.

    Convert 34 LID 9 x battalions into Air assault battalions and attach an aviation Brigade to its permanently instead of creating more Brigades. Then in case of war, launch 34 LID air assault battalions across LOC 15-25 km into IOK ahead of 12th Infantry Division under air cover of PAF for upto 6 hours, with 12th Infantry Division launching an attack on same positions from routes on ground to relieve 34 LID air borne units with ETA of 24-36 hours. While the 34 LID's units entrench themselves on peaks inside IOK to stop any IA reinforcements from reaching the LOC making its easier for 12th Infantry to make gains and reach 34 LID's units positions.
     
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  8. TF141

    TF141 FULL MEMBER

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    Disagree. If the IA can maintain normal sized divisions in the same terrain, so can we. We're talking about asset splitting, minor additions such as divisional reserve battalion are surely not too hard to raise/divert.
     
  9. TF141

    TF141 FULL MEMBER

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    12 Div offensive performance in 1971 was abysmal, Akbar Khan used bulk of his forces for a costly assault that resulted in no gain of enemy territory, and instead due to paucity of troops for defense, we lost Nangi Tekri and land in Leepa Valley. The former still troubles us (Battal Sector), and Leepa is very critical in defense along Srinagar-Muzaffarabad axis.
     
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  10. ARMalik

    ARMalik FULL MEMBER

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    In all the wars fought between Pakistan and India specially when Pakistan-Bangladesh (East Pakistan) were one, The Pakistan military has NEVER been defeated in The West now called Pakistan. The defeat was usually in East Pakistan, now Bangladesh. Even during Yahya Khan's blunders, The Western Front still managed to hold off Indian military. So obviously the Pak Military is doing something right, but as with everything, there is always room for improvement if there is a need.
     
  11. MUSTAKSHAF

    MUSTAKSHAF SENIOR MEMBER

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    We need total Air superiority for that,otherwise troops would be decimated+good number of helos.
     
  12. Signalian

    Signalian SENIOR MEMBER

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    IA formation distribution is different to PA's, each to suit own needs. If a formation needs only Supply unit, it wont be allocated two supply units. Making new HQ's is not a minor addition.

    Air Force will play a monumental role in all future wars.

    The performance of the 12th ID was not abysmal, it made gains into IOK and was then asked to withdraw citing lack of ammunition and supplies. The initial movements of 12th ID were detected by Indian surveillance and even while they pushed a reserve brigade into the area (which later helped 23rd ID), 12th ID still managed to ingress into IOK. GHQ itself gave low priority to Northern areas, which can be seen somewhat today also.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  13. TF141

    TF141 FULL MEMBER

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    Northern Areas weren't under Chinar Division, the scouts under a DG had responsibility for holding. If 12th Div had been divided into 2, one would have focused primarily on offense and the other could've held the holding sectors. GOC would face lesser trouble in coordination. I think the I Corps example is fair enough to explain my point.
     
  14. iby32

    iby32 FULL MEMBER

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    Raise a new Division by bringing battle hardened troops from FC. 3 infintary brigade one artillery brigade and Air defence units.

    But priority should be helicopters and long rang air defence
    Than think to raise a new divison.
     
  15. MUSTAKSHAF

    MUSTAKSHAF SENIOR MEMBER

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    Hope so we don't have to go on any advanture till Project Azm isn't declared operational.

    Matter of $$$.