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Raymond Davis Case: Developing Story

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AgNoStiC MuSliM

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The Law of the land must take its course whatever that may be without prejudice or persecution.
Certainly, but if the US is able to establish diplomatic immunity for the suspect in court, do you not agree that Pakistan is bound to then honor it and release the suspect (and likely ban him from Pakistan in the future)?

Unless of course Pakistan is able to convince the US to waive diplomatic immunity in return for prosecutors pursuing a lesser charge that results in a few years imprisonment.
 

pak-marine

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people no point having a kachehri here , bloody debate is going to take another 10000 posts ... let the courts decide .. if police has a solid case let the law decide their fate.
 

Gazzi

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A robber is a crook, with a public record, same day, same spot in Lahore, of holding up an innocent Paksitani man who filed his own police report against them a short time before they tried but failed to successfully rob Mr. Davis. Those are hard facts.

Please start saying your prayers for the deserving innocent 35 Lahore Pakitanis murdered there in Lahore with 180 more innocent Lahore Pakistanis wounded in the same terrorist suicide blast... the day before the two robbers robbed an innocent Paksitani man then failed to rob an American., starting most recently with the Lahore suicide bombing in Lahore which took 35 civilian lives and wounded 180 innocenet Pakistani men, women, and children. Surely we can agree on this...and I have been prayinig for these souls and they wounded from over here as I am a caring Christian and respect and grieve for wrongly taken innocent Pakistani lives there in Lahore.

And look at your internal news media in Pakistan to see the increasing number of robberies nationwide, which the Pakistani police and officials tell your medial relate to funding raising at the point of a gun by terrorists who some see as crooks, who in instances are raising money for terrorims, the violent form of the Taliban and al Qaida.
For crying out loud...........will you stop derailing the thread and stick to the topic...........

Dozens of witnesses came forward and said the victims were not trying to rob Davis however the Christian terrorist opened fire on them as they were riding off, shooiting them in their backs......HARD FACTS like wise........
 

American Eagle

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For crying out loud...........will you stop derailing the thread and stick to the topic...........

Dozens of witnesses came forward and said the victims were not trying to rob Davis however the Christian terrorist opened fire on them as they were riding off, shooiting them in their backs......HARD FACTS like wise........
Not facts at all.

Facts are the crooks had just held up a Pakistani man who had justed called in the police to report being robbed by them. That is your starting point.

Then the two crooks tried to rob the unexpecting American in his car.

Also, US Ambassador has established through and with Pakistani police officials that these two had an otherwise previous criminal history and they were illegally armed themselves, using their guns to try to hold up the Amerian.

Many actual facts here and there vs. sheer rumor mongering and false statements of some who simply wish ill on the US these days.
 

logic

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Certainly, but if the US is able to establish diplomatic immunity for the suspect in court, do you not agree that Pakistan is bound to then honor it and release the suspect (and likely ban him from Pakistan in the future)?

Unless of course Pakistan is able to convince the US to waive diplomatic immunity in return for prosecutors pursuing a lesser charge that results in a few years imprisonment.
Two issues that you have raised are
1. Diplomatic Immunity
The verdict is still out both sides with competing statements but as for now the person is in JUDICIAL CUSTODY.

President the Prime Minister the Chief Minister indeed the whole gang of thugs and goons have said that the court will decide the matter regarding the matter. The subject has immunity or no immunity is not going to be decide in a chat forum but instead in front of Magistrate in due course of time.

2. Sentence
This will depend on the first if he indeed is determined by the court that the suspect has immunity then he may be tried for homicide in a US court or if he has no immunity then the JURY IS STILL OUT.
 

AgNoStiC MuSliM

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Not facts at all.

Facts are the crooks had just held up a Pakistani man who had justed called in the police to report being robbed by them. That is your starting point.

Then the two crooks tried to rob the unexpecting American in his car.

Also, US Ambassador has established through and with Pakistani police officials that these two had an otherwise previous criminal history and they were illegally armed themselves, using their guns to try to hold up the Amerian.

Many actual facts here and there vs. sheer rumor mongering and false statements of some who simply wish ill on the US these days.
With all due respect sir, you are going to continue banging your head against a wall and further continue this argument by 'making the case' for the suspect.

It would be better to merely defer to the legal process and the courts, and the efforts of the US to establish diplomatic immunity for the suspect in the courts.

Would like to hear your take on whether you think the US should waive diplomatic immunity for the individual concerned if the initial investigation does not support the attempted robbery claim(though I do think that the suspect acted the way he did because he believed he was being robbed), and Pakistani prosecutors agree to charge the suspect with a lesser crime than criminal homicide.
 

AgNoStiC MuSliM

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The subject has immunity or no immunity is not going to be decide in a chat forum but instead in front of Magistrate in due course of time.
Absolutely, let the courts figure this out instead of raising hysteria in the public sphere, on both sides.
2. Sentence
This will depend on the first if he indeed is determined by the court that the suspect has immunity then he may be tried for homicide in a US court or if he has no immunity then the JURY IS STILL OUT.
If the suspect does have diplomatic immunity, can he be tried for the alleged crime in the US?
 

Gazzi

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If the suspect does have diplomatic immunity, can he be tried for the alleged crime in the US?
Agnostic............simple answer is no.....

The US ambassador must refer to Washington with regards to the waiver of his immunity if he has any......however, if the course of action is to enforce the Vienna convention then Pakistan must release the suspect and and such be deported to the US, whereby he will undoutedly face health and safety misconduct hearing along with other company in house regulation violations unless he has a good barrister, and claim self defence......but the process will be totally different and not a criminal hearing at all.......
 

ThunderCat

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Another piece of interesting material. Again don't know how accurate, but still interesting.

US Men killing Civillians with illegal firearms, over-speeding & Traffic Violations – “Diplomats” gone Nuts or Well-trained Spies’ mission gone bad? Part 1 Omer Zaheer Meer's Blog

Recently 3 Innocent lives were lost in the heart of Islamic Republic of Pakistan while more than a dozen people including women and children were severely injured, unfortunately at the hands of Americans roaming around suspiciously in busy areas of the city of Lahore with illegal arms and driving at high-speed breaking the one-way traffic route and crushing innocent bystanders and bicyclists under their 4×4.

The incident raised many questions while flaming the emotions of a strategically placed nuclear-nation of 180 Million people with a freed Judiciary, powerful military, unpopular government and powerful media, all crying out loud for just one thing …………………….

JUSTICE WITHOUT COMPROMISE

Before proceeding further on the matter, let us examine the matter with the stances from different sides, eyewitness accounts, the relatives of the murder victims and injured, public at large, stance of one of the culprits (remember his accomplice and the murderer who was driving the 4×4 fled the scene) Pakistan’s Government and the USA’s official stance.

Eyewitness Accounts:

The picture of the incident as reported through the words of eyewitnesses emerge as below:

a) The area was highly congested and traffic move very closely (it is very normal for people in the city and in many western cities including in Central London)

b) The American (called as Raymond Davis) shot at the back of two bike riders

c) One of them died on the spot

d) The other was in his dying moments when Raymond started taking pictures and making video of his dying moments and his dead companion

e) There was NO apparent provocation

f)When asked why he killed them he said he “acted in self-defense” in “URDU” the local national language which American Diplomats usually CANNOT speak.

g) He also shot at the Traffic Warden while trying to flee

h) When surrounded by cops and public and stuck in traffic Raymond pointed his weapons at the cops initially

i) The 4×4 which came to his rescue got stuck in traffic near jail road, Lahore and decided to break the law by entering the wrong side of a busy road at very HIGH speeds and killed atleast one innocent motorcyclist on the spot while injuring some pedestrians

j) While trying to flee Raymond hit a Rickshaw (local public transport vehicle for small number of passengers) which resulted in it turning upside down and injuring the women and kids in it while hitting some pedestrians who were later treated in the hospital

As per the relatives of the murder victims and injured:

k) Answering why ONE of the victims had a gun they clarified that it was a properly licensed weapon for personal safety as his Elder brother was murdered due to some rivalries and he was threatened

l) Confirmed that one of the motorcyclist got married 3 months ago and one was to marry within next couple of months

m) Pointed out to police confirmation that NONE has any criminal records before

n) Drew attention to the eyewitness confirmation that there was NO PROVOCATION and they did not aim at or approach the American

o) Referred to the autopsy report confirming that both were SHOT FROM THE BACK, MULTIPLE TIMES (Self defense?)

Public at large:

There is huge public outcry over the unprovoked murders in broad daylight in a busy center of the city by foreign nationals carrying ILLEGAL FIREARMS & BREAKING TRAFFIC LAWS.

The matter is seen as a test case for the hugely unpopular government.

Stance of one of the culprits (referred to as Mr. Raymond Davis):

One of the accomplice of Mr. Davis was reported to have fled in the “Rescue 4×4 Vehicle”, the driver of which is also at large after he KILLED another civilian motorcyclist when it entered a one-way road from the wrong way at high-speed. The culprits are with the American Consulate despite it’s promises to surrender the driver and the 4×4 involved in the traffic violations, injuring and killing of civilians, as confirmed by the Punjab Law Minister Mr. RanaSanaullah .

Since the other 2 accomplices are at large, only Raymond Davis’ stance is known as of yet.

Raymond has claimed that:

* he works as “technical advisor” with the American consulate in Lahore
* that the guys “wanted” to rob him
* previously he claimed that they aimed the weapon at him which was denied by eye witnesses and later retracted by him

* he acted in “self-defense”
* he will apologise to the relatives of the deceased
* (as per police sources) he “suspected” he was about to be kidnapped or attacked

Stance of Pakistan’s Government:

Mr. RanaSanaullah, the provincial law minister is reported to have told that:

* the man’s identity documents including passport names him as “Raymond Davis”
* his address is of USA
* he is with the USA consulate
* he had the firearm ILLEGALLY
* atleast 3 cell phones and illegal firearms were recovered from Raymond Davis
* the murder victims have a clean record with regards to robberies
* one of the murdered civilian’s brother was killed a few days ago and had kept a licensed firearm for self-protection with proper authorisation
* the murders were unprovoked
* USA consulate promised to surrender the 4×4 and the driver who violated traffic laws and killed another civilian
* they will “follow” the law and would “not” surrender to the pressures
* why was Raymond travelling in the center of the city WITHOUT informing any government official?
* why was Raymond carrying ILLEGAL FIREARMS?
* what was Raymond doing in the MOST BUSY area of Lahore city?

In another development, there was protest in the Assembly when a member of the ruling PPP asked the Federal Interior Minister, Mr. Abdul Rehman Malik to apologise for pressuring the Police officer incharge to let Raymond go free.

Mr. Malik denied the accusation.

Independent media reports and police officials confirmed the incident.

USA’s official stance:

After a long silence and careful silence USA has demanded release of Raymond Davis and backtracked on its promise to surrender the Murderer who was driving the 4×4 along with the vehicle.

Washington Post reported “U.S. Embassy demands release of ‘unlawfully detained’ diplomat who shot 2 Pakistanis”

Strange was the behaviour of the American officials who:

* claimed his name taken from his passport was NOT his real name (Fraud?)
* claimed he was a civilian official with the USA Consulate in Lahore
* REFUSED to disclose the position at the Consulate
* REFUSED to disclose the Real Name
* REFUSED to answer what was he doing in the Busy Center of Lahore
* No diplomatic immunity covers murder
* Diplomatic immunity is different for different officials, lesser for consular and even lesser for the consulate employees
 
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pakdefender

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I see Najam Sethi got his lifafa , Kamran Shafi has got one too and soon Asma Jhangir , and Nadeem "Fruitcake" Paracha will get one too.

There is a mountain of evidence against the killer , who is no diplomat but a Xe/Blackwater type contractor and whose status in the country is dubious.

I hope the courts dont come under pressure and convict this criminal , if the courts will not do their job then next time justice will be done by the public at the spot.
 
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architect_cobb

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I see Najam Sethi got his lifafa , Kamran Shafi has got one too and soon Asma Jhangir , and Nadeem "Fruitcake" Paracha will get one too.

There is a mountain of evidence against the killer , who is no diplomat but a Xe/Blackwater type contractor and whose status in the country is dubious.

I hope the courts dont come under pressure and convict this criminal , if the courts will not do their job then next time justice will be done by the public at the spot.
You are an american in a country where:-
1) You know you are a prime target for kidnapping and murder.
2) where recently chinese french and polish diplomats/engineers have been killed.
3) Where foreigners once kidnapped are more prone to be beheaded than anything else.
4) Where car jacking is a norm of the day.


In such a scenario when you suddenly come across a scenario where a few armed men try to stop you with their guns drawn, what would you do?

Having said that the question that should be asked is not about Davis but about the govt that why are such personnel allowed in our country on diplomatic passports. Why have they been given a green signal to roam about freely and what sort of agreement is there between the two govts facilitiating this.

Unfortunately our emotional nation would always be happy with superficial acts and as they call in Punjabi Bharrak. But these bharraks neither look good in the international community nor do they solve any problems. IMHO.
 
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