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Rafales or No Rafales– Chinese Designer Explains Why Stealth, 5th Gen J-20 Jet Beats Everyone Around

Philip the Arab

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J-20 does what F-22 and F-35 do.
Not from the sources I have read.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/the-real-purpose-behind-chinas-mysterious-j-20-combat-jet-2017-1?amp


Instead, "the Chinese are recognizing they can attack critical airborne support systems like AWACS (airborne early warning and control systems) and refueling planes so they can't do their job," Davis said. "If you can force the tankers back, then the F-35s and other platforms aren't sufficient because they can't reach their target."
 

Tamiyah

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J-20 does what F-22 and F-35 do.
No one denied that sir. He was just saying that China would probably use J20 for taking out much more valuable assets like AWACS and tanker because PLAAF's 4th gen fighters are enough to take out IAF's whole fighter fleet.
 

dbc

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The same elements that would give J-20 the ability to be used against larger platforms apply to fighter sized aircraft. Undetected approach, getting the adversary in a favorable weapons engagement zone and employing very long range AAMs is what the J-20 promises.
Wrong, long range AAMs are wasted against a highly maneuverable target when employed at the edge of its envelope. Particularly when the adversary in question has a self defense suite like SPECTRA and the IAF version unlike the French is equipped with the X-Guard fibre-optic towed decoy.

Towed decoy is very effective against radar guided missiles.
None of these options are available to slow movers such as air refuelers, transport and AWACS.

https://www.rafael.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/X-GUARD1.pdf
 

Philip the Arab

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Wrong, long range AAMs are wasted against a highly maneuverable target when employed at the edge of its envelope. Particularly when the adversary in question has a self defense suite like SPECTRA and the IAF version unlike the French is equipped with the X-Guard fibre-optic towed decoy.

Towed decoy is very effective against radar guided missiles.
None of these options are available to slow movers such as air refuelers, transport and AWACS.

https://www.rafael.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/X-GUARD1.pdf
So the best use would be against assets like AWACS and tankers right?
 

Figaro

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As reported by EurAsian Times, China is close to developing indigenous engines for its J-20B fighter jet. China wants to reduce its dependency on foreign-made engines and once it masters the art of powering jets via indigenous engines, it will be able to develop and produce the next generation of fighter jets.
Good article but just one minor point ... the J-20 already has indigenous engines.
So the best use would be against assets like AWACS and tankers right?
Yup ... these very long range A2A missiles should mostly be used against high value targets.
 

blain2

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Wrong, long range AAMs are wasted against a highly maneuverable target when employed at the edge of its envelope. Particularly when the adversary in question has a self defense suite like SPECTRA and the IAF version unlike the French is equipped with the X-Guard fibre-optic towed decoy.

Towed decoy is very effective against radar guided missiles.
None of these options are available to slow movers such as air refuelers, transport and AWACS.

https://www.rafael.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/X-GUARD1.pdf
I think a very narrow lens is being applied to the J-20. Just one of the "possible" operational profiles of the J-20 would be to operate in interdiction roles against force-multipliers. Otherwise who says that J-20 will not employ PL-10s in BVR against smaller, fighter aircraft sized targets? Chinese certainly are not limiting a 5th generation aircraft's profile to be used only against such force multipliers. Towed decoys have been employed for much longer with Typhoon and other platforms as well. It is just one of the measures available to increase survivability of the aircraft but no Rafale pilot in his right mind would want to sit around waiting to test his towed decoy system specially when there is a BVR missile coming in his direction from an adversary that has crept up against him due to very low visibility profile.

Secondly, and practically, what would hold the Chinese back from launching BVRAAMs on a Rafale? Do you think they would pause just because it is equipped with "Spectra" which is completely untested in air-to-air combat?

All of the above are self-convincing arguments as to why the Chinese will not employ J-20 for fighter interdiction. The entire purpose of the F/A-22 program is to use long range AAMs to whittle down adversarial fighters so the older aircraft can get in and do what they need to. J-20 would certainly be considered for employment in the same manner.
 

Figaro

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Not from the sources I have read.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/the-real-purpose-behind-chinas-mysterious-j-20-combat-jet-2017-1?amp


Instead, "the Chinese are recognizing they can attack critical airborne support systems like AWACS (airborne early warning and control systems) and refueling planes so they can't do their job," Davis said. "If you can force the tankers back, then the F-35s and other platforms aren't sufficient because they can't reach their target."
The J-20 is an air superiority fighter first and foremost. All other roles (strike and interception) are secondary. Straight from the horse's mouth.

1.jpg
 

dbc

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I think a very narrow lens is being applied to the J-20. Just one of the "possible" operational profiles of the J-20 would be to operate in interdiction roles against force-multipliers. Otherwise who says that J-20 will not employ PL-10s in BVR against smaller, fighter aircraft sized targets?
I was talking about long range engagement of maneuverable fast movers using PL-15's.
Assuming wiki is accurate the edge of the PL-15's range is 300 km. The Rafale has plenty of time to detect lock, launch and track the inbound missile. At this distance, the Rafale has plenty of options and in all likelihood the Chinese have just wasted a missile. The advantage of a stealth platform like the J-20 is that it can get a lot closer and compress the reaction time of the defending Rafale. Plus using co-operative target engagement the shooter can get even closer undetected.

I did not say the Rafale could not be engaged and destroyed by the J-20. I did not say nor did I imply the Chinese will restrict the J-20 to engagement and destruction of support aircraft.


Towed decoys have been employed for much longer with Typhoon and other platforms as well. It is just one of the measures available to increase survivability of the aircraft but no Rafale pilot in his right mind would want to sit around waiting to test his towed decoy system specially when there is a BVR missile coming in his direction from an adversary that has crept up against him due to very low visibility profile.
Wild weasels do it all the time both in training and in real battle against faster, smarter more maneuverable SAMs.
The results in test and in combat is a staggering 100% success, the towed decoy has not failed once. The decoy concept is so effective USAF has taken it further with the ADM-160 MALD decoy, autonomous decoys that draw enemy fire and degrade enemy response against the inbound attackers.

Lastly, I reiterate my point made in the earlier post when I called into question the logic of long range engagement of any fast mover equipped with electronic detection and self defense suite capable of jamming and deploying seduction tactics such as the towed decoys.
 

Nilgiri

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We shall see how, and when China uses its J-20s in combat.
Most of the CCP keyboard warriors and lackeys dont realise (or ignorantly dismiss) how few airbases China has in Tibet and why thats a huge problem for any actual air war with India.

They are frankly some of the most illiterate twits you will find on this forum. Copy, paste, blab, copy paste some more.

A system is only as good as its weakest part in the chain of deployment.
 

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