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Omar Al-Deek

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I want to be clear that I am not attacking Jinnah- I am looking for a response to a line of thought regarding Jinnah.

As I understand it, there is a line of thought that claims Modi is a Hindu Jinnah, BJP is pushing for "Hindu Pakistan"- I think this is a line of thought that is associated with India's Congress party.


I want to be very clear that I am not endorsing that line of thought. I honestly don't know that much about Jinnah. I think we may have some Jinnahologists here who can respond to this line of thinking and I would like to know how this line of theory can be responded to in a way that is pro-Pakistan.

Myself, I don't really know much about Jinnah so I am wondering how people who are better informed can respond to this claim. Instead of trying to articulate a response myself on the basis of a very limited knowledge, I would like to know how people who have studied Jinnah can respond to the claim.

Myself- I think many people sacrificed a lot so there can be a Pakistan, I respect the Pakistani nation and people and I respect Pakistan's right to independence. If Pakistanis woke up tomorrow and said they wanted to rejoin India, I would respect that. But I don't think that will happen anytime soon (possibly not in a 100 years, possibly not in a 1,000, possibly never- Allah knows best) and I think Pakistan has a right to independence based on the will of the Pakistani people. They have a right to self-determination and so I respect the will of the Pakistani people and I think the will of the Pakistani people has to be respected.
 
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PakistaniJunior

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@Omar Al-Deek I am not the most educated poster of this forum but i have been reading a book regarding the Hindutva (which Narendra Modi is affiliated to if not one himself). I am still yet to finish it but i'll try my best to answer this. I am unable to read one of your links as i think it may have blocked my access.

I know it may seem biased of me, but whatever you hear regarding Pakistan through the mouths of Indians must be taken with a spoon full of salt. I am not kidding when i say this, But Hindutvadis and Indians tend to spread a lot of misinformation regarding us and our narratives. That being said could you specify what exactly it is that you're inquiring us about?
 

Omar Al-Deek

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@Omar Al-Deek I am not the most educated poster of this forum but i have been reading a book regarding the Hindutva (which Narendra Modi is affiliated to if not one himself). I am still yet to finish it but i'll try my best to answer this. I am unable to read one of your links as i think it may have blocked my access.

I know it may seem biased of me, but whatever you hear regarding Pakistan through the mouths of Indians must be taken with a spoon full of salt. I am not kidding when i say this, But Hindutvadis and Indians tend to spread a lot of misinformation regarding us and our narratives. That being said could you specify what exactly it is that you're inquiring us about?
JazakAllahkhair.

Well basically there is a line of thought promoted I believe by the Congress party- and this line of thought I think goes something like this

"yes, Hindu communalism like Modi/BJP/RSS/Savarkar is wrong, we reject that kind of ideology..... but Muslim League ideology and Hindutva are two sides of the same coin, one is Hindu communalism, one is Muslim communalism" and so this line of thought opposes both. It was promoted by Nehru and Maulana Azad.

It is a line of thought that goes back to Nehru and his kind of thinking as I understand it, I think it is generally promoted by pro-Congress party Indians and so I make this thread wondering as to how this line of thought can be responded to in a way that is pro-Pakistan. I think it is an Indian viewpoint and so I am curious as to other points of view in regards to that line of thought.
 

TheSnakeEatingMarkhur

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I want to be clear that I am not attacking Jinnah- I am looking for a response to a line of thought regarding Jinnah.

As I understand it, there is a line of thought that claims Modi is a Hindu Jinnah, BJP is pushing for "Hindu Pakistan"- I think this is a line of thought that is associated with India's Congress party.


I want to be very clear that I am not endorsing that line of thought. I honestly don't know that much about Jinnah. I think we may have some Jinnahologists here who can respond to this line of thinking and I would like to know how this line of theory can be responded to in a way that is pro-Pakistan.

Myself, I don't really know much about Jinnah so I am wondering how people who are better informed can respond to this claim. Instead of trying to articulate a response myself on the basis of a very limited knowledge, I would like to know how people who have studied Jinnah can respond to the claim.

Myself- I think many people sacrificed a lot so there can be a Pakistan, I respect the Pakistani nation and people and I respect Pakistan's right to independence. If Pakistanis woke up tomorrow and said they wanted to rejoin India, I would respect that. But I don't think that will happen anytime soon (possibly not in a 100 years, possibly not in a 1,000, possibly never- Allah knows best) and I think Pakistan has a right to independence based on the will of the Pakistani people. They have a right to self-determination and so I respect the will of the Pakistani people and I think the will of the Pakistani people has to be respected.
Congress was Nahrus Party same Nehru who didn't give Muslims the right of representation according to percentage of population in Parliament of India to be... and when Jinnah stood up for Pakistan they portrayed him as a negative person and thats why they have brainwashed indians to believe
 

Omar Al-Deek

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Congress was Nahrus Party same Nehru who didn't give Muslims the right of representation according to percentage of population in Parliament of India to be... and when Jinnah stood up for Pakistan they portrayed him as a negative person and thats why they have brainwashed indians to believe
Thank you. That is exactly the kind of thing I am looking for. I have seen the Indian point of view and so I want to learn the other viewpoint as well so I'm not only exposed to the thinking of one side.
 

TheSnakeEatingMarkhur

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Thank you. That is exactly the kind of thing I am looking for. I have seen the Indian point of view and so I want to learn the other viewpoint as well so I'm not only exposed to the thinking of one side.
Jinnah was a supporter of Hindu Muslim Bahi Bahi until Nehru showed him what Congress had planned for Muslims of India... and thats when he changed his mind from being opposite to Iqbal to being with Iqbal and it was his change of mind that brought many Muslim leaders together from Bengali leaders of Muslim League or Punjabi Muslim Zimedars to Pashtoons and Balochistans Khan of Kalat..
 

Omar Al-Deek

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Jinnah was a supporter of Hindu Muslim Bahi Bahi until Nehru showed him what Congress had planned for Muslims of India... and thats when he changed his mind from being opposite to Iqbal to being with Iqbal and it was his change of mind that brought many Muslim leaders together from Bengali leaders of Muslim League or Punjabi Muslim Zimedars to Pashtoons and Balochistans Khan of Kalat..
What was it that made him change his mind?
 

PakistaniJunior

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JazakAllahkhair.

Well basically there is a line of thought promoted I believe by the Congress party- and this line of thought I think goes something like this

"yes, Hindu communalism like Modi/BJP/RSS/Savarkar is wrong, we reject that kind of ideology..... but Muslim League ideology and Hindutva are two sides of the same coin, one is Hindu communalism, one is Muslim communalism" and so this line of thought opposes both. It was promoted by Nehru and Maulana Azad.

It is a line of thought that goes back to Nehru and his kind of thinking as I understand it, I think it is generally promoted by pro-Congress party Indians and so I make this thread wondering as to how this line of thought can be responded to in a way that is pro-Pakistan. I think it is an Indian viewpoint and so I am curious as to other points of view in regards to that line of thought.
Jinnah along with many other Muslim figures whom were crucial for Pakistan's creation supported Hindu-Muslim Unity Initially. However they were later forced to change their perspectives because they realized that the Hindus (despite claiming to look out for every community's interests) were only looking out for their own Interests, they didn't care about our rights. You should also read up on RSS at the time of partition and before the occurance of partition. The RSS at the time had been inticing communal clashes between Hindu and Muslim communities through deciet and immoral actions. According to their ideology, Muslims, Christians and Jews are all foreigners and if such people wish to remain in India, then they should either revert back to Hinduism or live subjucated and as second class citizens without any rights. (You can look for these quotes, they exactly mention this) The founders of Pakistan were facing a situation like this, and this is why the creation for Pakistan was important to us.


That being said, the way the congressman has stated Narendra Modi making India a "Hindu Pakistan" is honestly laughable. They speak as if the situation of minorities in Pakistan is way worser than in India. The difference between Indians and Pakistanis is that while we have also had radical extremists in our society , Pakistanis (despite being a Islamic country today) have NEVER elected them into power nor do we get woo-ed by such slogans calling for discrimination against our minorities. Not even when we were going through waves of terrorism. Narendra Modi is infact nothing like Mohammad Ali Jinnah, Modi is a Hindu extremist. Can the same really be said about Jinnah who just wanted to save Muslims from these very extremists we see in India today?
 

Omar Al-Deek

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JThat being said, the way the congressman has stated Narendra Modi making India a "Hindu Pakistan" is honestly laughable. They speak as if the situation of minorities in Pakistan is way worser than in India. The difference between Indians and Pakistanis is that while we have also had radical extremists in our society , Pakistanis (despite being a Islamic country today) have NEVER elected them into power nor do we get woo-ed by such slogans calling for discrimination against our minorities. Not even when we were going through waves of terrorism. Narendra Modi is infact nothing like Mohammad Ali Jinnah, Modi is a Hindu extremist. Can the same really be said about Jinnah who just wanted to save Muslims from these very extremists we see in India today?
Thank you very much for your contribution.

So I can understand who you are talking about when you mention the extremists- can you describe the extremists, maybe some names and about their ideology? This way I can understand the extremists you are refering to and understand what Pakistanis have rejected by rejecting them, this way insha'Allah I can better understand Pakistan.

I am convinced that there is a serious danger that us foreigners do not understand Pakistan and that we therefore could be tricked by false and deceptive narratives.

What I do know is that.... although I do believe that there is a serious problem of misinformation being spread about Pakistan- when you actually meet Pakistani people, I think qualities that stand out in general are that the Pakistani people are friendly, intelligent, kind, warm people- not what hostile and Islamophobic propaganda would have people to believe. I think there is a worldwide agenda to stigmatize Muslims and paint Muslims in a negative manner- especially Muslims who insist on following Islam's noble teachings and are not willing to bow to the West.
 

PakistaniJunior

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Thank you very much for your contribution.

So I can understand who you are talking about when you mention the extremists- can you describe the extremists, maybe some names and about their ideology? This way I can understand the extremists you are refering to and understand what Pakistanis have rejected by rejecting them, this way insha'Allah I can better understand Pakistan.

I am convinced that there is a serious danger that us foreigners do not understand Pakistan and that we therefore could be tricked by false and deceptive narratives.

What I do know is that.... although I do believe that there is a serious problem of misinformation being spread about Pakistan- when you actually meet Pakistani people, I think qualities that stand out in general are that the Pakistani people are friendly, intelligent, kind, warm people- not what hostile and Islamophobic propaganda would have people to believe. I think there is a worldwide agenda to stigmatize Muslims and paint Muslims in a negative manner- especially Muslims who insist on following Islam's noble teachings and are not willing to bow to the West.
I appreciate you educating yourself on this. Pakistanis have been long aware of the characteristics of our enemy but something i was always shocked by was how come this was never noticed by foreign people. Especially by people who share common faith with us.

To best understand the extremists i am talking about, i recommend you read the book "Rising Hindutva and it's impact on the region" by a Pakistani author "S.M.Hali" who has decided to write on the topic from different angles.

In terms of the RSS extremists i am talking about, Read about its originators i.e Vinayak Damodar Savarkar, Keshav Bailram Hedgewar , Golwalker and the guy who assasinated Gandhi shortly after partition, Nathuram Godse.

Your answer mainly lies in the ideology they propagate. Hinduism since its inception has never been a centralized single faith, but it was the collection of different faiths all grouped together under the banner of Hinduism by the Europeans. When you move from state to state in India, the religion changes, the rituals changes, the deity changes. The phenomenon of Hindutva wanted to unify the believers of these scattered faith under the single banner of Hindutva , in a effort to unite all the Hindus together. According to Sarvarkar, he states that for a person to be a Hindu, they should believe India to be their "Fatherland" as well as their "Holy Land" , only then can a person be called a Hindu. By this definition, Muslims and Christians are considered outsiders or foreigners they seek to either forcefully convert to Hinduism or to not be given any rights and privileges. That is the gist of their ideology but i recommend you to read the book i have recommended as it will help you understand things to a greater extent as well as the hypocrisy and cunningness of their tactics. Let me know what you thought of it after reading it.

Incidents ignited by the RSS started happening since before the Partition. There were Hindu mobs at the time of partition that seeked for the "Ghar wapsi" (Return to the home) of British Indian Muslims, basically wanting to force them to revert back to Hinduism or get killed. The end goal of the Hindutva is to establish a Hindu Rashtra (Hindu country) in the territories located in their concept of "Akhand Bharat" (United Bharat) which includes territories from Afghanistan to all the way to South east Asia. This is why i believe that especially now, India is never going to take the route for peace with Pakistan. When they dream of cleansing our lands of its population like this.

I will attach some images taken from the book i mentioned before hand.

20201002_095156.jpg


20201002_095350.jpg


I suggest you read the following links too:



Another thing that you should know is that these people glorified the Policies of Hitler and adopted it. There is a segment of Hindus that have gone so far as to claim that the Holy Ka'aba is a Hindu temple (Nauzubillah). You will not find a more morally corrupt and cunning mass anywhere else in the world. Today these extremists have penetrated in all aspects of the Indian society and majority of the Indian population are its supporters. They have dehumanized us Pakistanis, Indian Muslims and other Indian minorities. The only reason they act two faced with our other Muslim brothers is because the seek something of interest but these lot will waste no opportunity to turn on you when they can. As you can see by how arrogant the Indians have grown and are now making remarks against Muslims and Arab women on Twitter.

This is the menace we have been dealing with for decades. But if after this you still chose to view them in a softer light then that is entirely upto you. The Funny thing is that a lot of the principals these extremists advocate go against the very essence of Hinduism itself. Though as time is moving forward, more of them are being exposed today.

Hopefully my answer helps.
 

fitpOsitive

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I want to be clear that I am not attacking Jinnah- I am looking for a response to a line of thought regarding Jinnah.

As I understand it, there is a line of thought that claims Modi is a Hindu Jinnah, BJP is pushing for "Hindu Pakistan"- I think this is a line of thought that is associated with India's Congress party.


I want to be very clear that I am not endorsing that line of thought. I honestly don't know that much about Jinnah. I think we may have some Jinnahologists here who can respond to this line of thinking and I would like to know how this line of theory can be responded to in a way that is pro-Pakistan.

Myself, I don't really know much about Jinnah so I am wondering how people who are better informed can respond to this claim. Instead of trying to articulate a response myself on the basis of a very limited knowledge, I would like to know how people who have studied Jinnah can respond to the claim.

Myself- I think many people sacrificed a lot so there can be a Pakistan, I respect the Pakistani nation and people and I respect Pakistan's right to independence. If Pakistanis woke up tomorrow and said they wanted to rejoin India, I would respect that. But I don't think that will happen anytime soon (possibly not in a 100 years, possibly not in a 1,000, possibly never- Allah knows best) and I think Pakistan has a right to independence based on the will of the Pakistani people. They have a right to self-determination and so I respect the will of the Pakistani people and I think the will of the Pakistani people has to be respected.
There is an inherent problem in the fabric of subcontinent. The problem is, we don't value our people(Hindu Muslim sikh all included). We don't value our things(fruits, culture, values, people, resources). That's why we don't refine them, and hence end up importing 3rd class yet polished, goods and resources from 4th class first world countries.
Your were saying about Pakistan joining India? Mark my words, no matter how much technologically good India and Pakistan become, no matter how much big economic powers we become, if we didn't correct the problem with our mentalities, there will many more Pakistans coming out of India, as well from Pakistan. I am afraid, if didn't correct our selves, there will be no countries called India or Pakistan in next 35 years.
Baqi khuab daikhnay per pabandi nahi hai.
 

Omar Al-Deek

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There is an inherent problem in the fabric of subcontinent. The problem is, we don't value our people(Hindu Muslim sikh all included). We don't value our things(fruits, culture, values, people, resources). That's why we don't refine them, and hence end up importing 3rd class yet polished, goods and resources from 4th class first world countries.
Your were saying about Pakistan joining India? Mark my words, no matter how much technologically good India and Pakistan become, no matter how much big economic powers we become, if we didn't correct the problem with our mentalities, there will many more Pakistans coming out of India, as well from Pakistan. I am afraid, if didn't correct our selves, there will be no countries called India or Pakistan in next 35 years.
Baqi khuab daikhnay per pabandi nahi hai.
I want to answer this first because I don't want any misconception.

To understand the creation of Pakistan, I think it is necessary to understand 1940's India.

I know very little about 1940's India. I don't feel qualified to really have a definite viewpoint on 1940's India.

So I don't claim I understand 1940's India or creation of Pakistan.

I would be claiming to understand something that I know very little about.

The history of the region is made especially difficult by the fact that you will get completely different stories based on who you ask.

So as I see it, I look at it in terms that I understand and that are familiar to me.

I don't really understand 1940's India but I understand that Pakistanis have a right to self-determination and that Pakistan has a right to its independence.

As far as I'm concerned, Pakistan has a right to its independence on the basis of self-determination. In this way, I can conceptualize things using a theoretical framework that is familiar to me and I can avoid getting pulled into any debate rooted in 1940's India which I consider to be way outside the range of what I'm qualified to have a definite opinion on and is an area where I as a foreigner would prefer to stay out of debate. I would like to learn but no way do I think I'm qualified to jump into the fray myself. Nor do I want to. I think I'd be crazy to jump into a debate on 1940's India.
 

fitpOsitive

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I want to answer this first because I don't want any misconception.

To understand the creation of Pakistan, I think it is necessary to understand 1940's India.

I know very little about 1940's India. I don't feel qualified to really have a definite viewpoint on 1940's India.

So I don't claim I understand 1940's India or creation of Pakistan.

I would be claiming to understand something that I know very little about.

The history of the region is made especially difficult by the fact that you will get completely different stories based on who you ask.

So as I see it, I look at it in terms that I understand and that are familiar to me.

I don't really understand 1940's India but I understand that Pakistanis have a right to self-determination and that Pakistan has a right to its independence.

As far as I'm concerned, Pakistan has a right to its independence on the basis of self-determination. In this way, I can conceptualize things using a theoretical framework that is familiar to me and I can avoid getting pulled into any debate rooted in 1940's India which I consider to be way outside the range of what I'm qualified to have a definite opinion on and is an area where I as a foreigner would prefer to stay out of debate. I would like to learn but no way do I think I'm qualified to jump into the fray myself. Nor do I want to. I think I'd be crazy to jump into a debate on 1940's India.
It's in the mentalities of the people of this region. No matter what story they tell, I know the root cause.
 

Omar Al-Deek

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I appreciate you educating yourself on this. Pakistanis have been long aware of the characteristics of our enemy but something i was always shocked by was how come this was never noticed by foreign people. Especially by people who share common faith with us.

To best understand the extremists i am talking about, i recommend you read the book "Rising Hindutva and it's impact on the region" by a Pakistani author "S.M.Hali" who has decided to write on the topic from different angles.

In terms of the RSS extremists i am talking about, Read about its originators i.e Vinayak Damodar Savarkar, Keshav Bailram Hedgewar , Golwalker and the guy who assasinated Gandhi shortly after partition, Nathuram Godse.

Your answer mainly lies in the ideology they propagate. Hinduism since its inception has never been a centralized single faith, but it was the collection of different faiths all grouped together under the banner of Hinduism by the Europeans. When you move from state to state in India, the religion changes, the rituals changes, the deity changes. The phenomenon of Hindutva wanted to unify the believers of these scattered faith under the single banner of Hindutva , in a effort to unite all the Hindus together. According to Sarvarkar, he states that for a person to be a Hindu, they should believe India to be their "Fatherland" as well as their "Holy Land" , only then can a person be called a Hindu. By this definition, Muslims and Christians are considered outsiders or foreigners they seek to either forcefully convert to Hinduism or to not be given any rights and privileges. That is the gist of their ideology but i recommend you to read the book i have recommended as it will help you understand things to a greater extent as well as the hypocrisy and cunningness of their tactics. Let me know what you thought of it after reading it.

Incidents ignited by the RSS started happening since before the Partition. There were Hindu mobs at the time of partition that seeked for the "Ghar wapsi" (Return to the home) of British Indian Muslims, basically wanting to force them to revert back to Hinduism or get killed. The end goal of the Hindutva is to establish a Hindu Rashtra (Hindu country) in the territories located in their concept of "Akhand Bharat" (United Bharat) which includes territories from Afghanistan to all the way to South east Asia. This is why i believe that especially now, India is never going to take the route for peace with Pakistan. When they dream of cleansing our lands of its population like this.

I will attach some images taken from the book i mentioned before hand.

View attachment 675359

View attachment 675365

I suggest you read the following links too:



Another thing that you should know is that these people glorified the Policies of Hitler and adopted it. There is a segment of Hindus that have gone so far as to claim that the Holy Ka'aba is a Hindu temple (Nauzubillah). You will not find a more morally corrupt and cunning mass anywhere else in the world. Today these extremists have penetrated in all aspects of the Indian society and majority of the Indian population are its supporters. They have dehumanized us Pakistanis, Indian Muslims and other Indian minorities. The only reason they act two faced with our other Muslim brothers is because the seek something of interest but these lot will waste no opportunity to turn on you when they can. As you can see by how arrogant the Indians have grown and are now making remarks against Muslims and Arab women on Twitter.

This is the menace we have been dealing with for decades. But if after this you still chose to view them in a softer light then that is entirely upto you. The Funny thing is that a lot of the principals these extremists advocate go against the very essence of Hinduism itself. Though as time is moving forward, more of them are being exposed today.

Hopefully my answer helps.
I want to be better educated and to understand history and current events. As far as I am concerned, my aim is simply to be better educated.

I don't want to be pulled into any foreign disputes. History shows how dangerous such a thing is.

That being said... there are issues where difference of opinion is acceptable and there are issues where certain things are beyond the pale of what is acceptable.

For any decent person, I think the RSS ideology is clearly beyond the pale of what is acceptable.

I absolutely don't want to say anything against India and I feel very warmly towards India. I respect India, I admire its freedom struggle, the depth of its achievements in philosophy, its traditional pluralism and much about its culture and history. God willing, I will always feel a deep respect for India.

For me it is like Italy and Germany. I actually much respect Mussolini for his contribution to defending Spain against Communism and for his support of General Franco. God willing, I will never forget what Mussolini did for Spain. It is another subject but I am staunchly a supporter of Franco. The Communists in Spain were violating and murdering nuns but the international media doesn't talk about that. The thousands of Italian troops sent by Mussolini risked their lives and many of them died in helping defend Spain against the atrocities that were being committed by the Communists who were backed by Stalin.

As for Germany, Germany is the land of Immanual Kant and Hegel. It is a place with high achievements in the field of philosophy. Germany is not defined by the mistakes that were made.

India and Hinduism are not defined by what is happening today. A sad and dark chapter is being written in the history of India.

Italy did some wrong things (I agree with Mussolini supporting Franco in Spain but of course I do not agree with the invasion of Ethiopia) and Germany did some very wrong stuff but that does not eliminate what is good in the history of those countries.

No matter what India does, India is still the land of Gandhi (as well as numerous others who participated in the freedom movement), of the struggle against the British and of an ancient culture with roots that stretch back thousands of years. I respect the rights of Hindus, I understand that they've had crimes committed against them and they have a right to defend their rights and their dignity- but none of that necessitates promoting bigotry against minorities and against South Asian Muslims.

I cannot hate India and I am sure that Indians will one day understand that this RSS stuff was a mistake.

I don't want to say anything against India but I do not feel that I can sit back and act as though this RSS-propagated bigotry is something that is acceptable. I cannot act as though the propagation of racist and religious hatred against South Asian Muslims is acceptable. I respect India and I don't want to go against India but I feel that the RSS stuff is forcing me to have to say something- not against India but against the bigotry. I eagerly await the day when all this RSS stuff is reduced to being a fringe element and when India gets away from this move towards extremism.

That is about as much as I'd like to say. I am not against India and I respect Hindus but I have no choice but to be against the RSS stuff.

"But if after this you still chose to view them in a softer light then that is entirely upto you."

As far as the RSS stuff, viewing the RSS ideology in a soft light is out of the question for me. I have the book you cited, I have looked into the RSS stuff and what I've said are my conclusions after having studied the issue.
 
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jamahir

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As far as the RSS stuff, viewing the RSS ideology in a soft light is out of the question for me.
But why not ? After all you like Mussolini who was a fascist, and RSS is fascist too.

The Communists in Spain were violating and murdering nuns but the international media doesn't talk about that.
I don't know how true is the underlined but the international media doesn't much talk about the genocide against communists and their sympathizers in Indonesia too. The perpetrator was the Western / CIA puppet, right-winger, Suharto and his mullah-guided bunch killed up to a million communists / leftists and sympathizers. Maybe more.
 

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