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KaiserX

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My intention is not to troll - pak establishment knows Americans are the biggest fools....the way they are played all these years....

Would pak be able to play similar double game against any other country (for ex: against china) while being an ally of that country?

In their double game, pak.leaders destroyed their own nation, and blame USA.

Many times, I think how much pak would have benefitted if they played straight after 9/11. You could have asked USA to set-up top class universities etc etc in pak........But being a security state, yourselves & your leaders can't think / do any better.

Now, trying to go with Russia, as if they don't have their own self-interests.

From inception, the behaviour of pak is like this (unfortunate).

Again - my intention is not to troll.
First time on this forum I actually agree with a bhangee for once. Pakistani generals/politicians played such games with America that in the end of the day they left the nation with their loot and the country in tatters.

A smarter strategy after 9/11 would have been to make a special security agreement, where Pakistan would be able to station thousands of its own troops in afghanistan, while also getting billions in aid to go into infrastructure/education/healthcare. A

t the same time allowing major trade concessions with the US/West ie duty free exports or even subsidized exports as we had in the 80s. Instead the nation was sold out for a few F-16s with nothing to show. Hell even Bangladesh has far better trade concessions with the west today.

Musharaf was a world class idiot. He refused to even negotiate better terms with them. Bush would have been willing to give him almost anything he wanted. Now today Pakistanis blame the US/West for any tom dick harry going wrong in their country. When they refuse to look inwards at themselves.
 

jk007

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First time on this forum I actually agree with a bhangee for once. Pakistani generals/politicians played such games with America that in the end of the day they left the nation with their loot and the country in tatters.

A smarter strategy after 9/11 would have been to make a special security agreement, where Pakistan would be able to station thousands of its own troops in afghanistan, while also getting billions in aid to go into infrastructure/education/healthcare. A

t the same time allowing major trade concessions with the US/West ie duty free exports or even subsidized exports as we had in the 80s. Instead the nation was sold out for a few F-16s with nothing to show. Hell even Bangladesh has far better trade concessions with the west today.

Musharaf was a world class idiot. He refused to even negotiate better terms with them. Bush would have been willing to give him almost anything he wanted. Now today Pakistanis blame the US/West for any tom dick harry going wrong in their country. When they refuse to look inwards at themselves.
You called me bhangee?? what does that mean?? Is that derogatory? Because I am from India, you called me a derogatory term?? If that is a derogatory term, then shame on you.

Musharraf is not an idiot....based on his objectives, he played smart, as did every PA chiefs including Kayani etc.....

As long as folks in PDF (and maybe, whole of Pak) celebrate imaginary military victories, and keep their primary objective to wrestle kashmir - the end result will be same.

In their hearts, the top 5% of pakistan knows what the problem is.......Again - whom am I tell you?
 
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CrazyZ

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First time on this forum I actually agree with a bhangee for once. Pakistani generals/politicians played such games with America that in the end of the day they left the nation with their loot and the country in tatters.

A smarter strategy after 9/11 would have been to make a special security agreement, where Pakistan would be able to station thousands of its own troops in afghanistan, while also getting billions in aid to go into infrastructure/education/healthcare. A

t the same time allowing major trade concessions with the US/West ie duty free exports or even subsidized exports as we had in the 80s. Instead the nation was sold out for a few F-16s with nothing to show. Hell even Bangladesh has far better trade concessions with the west today.

Musharaf was a world class idiot. He refused to even negotiate better terms with them. Bush would have been willing to give him almost anything he wanted. Now today Pakistanis blame the US/West for any tom dick harry going wrong in their country. When they refuse to look inwards at themselves.
I doubt Pakistan would have gotten anything more from the USA. The Afghan, Indian, and Israel lobbies would have assured that. Plus most American strategist preferred deeper alliance with India (it is arguable what they actually gained pragmatically). They viewed Pakistan as a dependent state that they could easily pressure behind closed doors. Relationship was never on normal terms. A rift was inevitable IMO.

Blowback from the war in Afghanistan was inevitable for Pakistan from multiple factions. Pakistan had to secure its interests. No different then the other actors involved.
 
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KaiserX

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I doubt Pakistan would have gotten anything more from the USA. The Afghan, Indian, and Israel lobbies would have assured that. Plus most Americans strategists preferred deeper alliance with India. They viewed Pakistan as a dependent state that they could easily pressure behind closed doors. Relationship was never on normal terms. A rift was inevitable IMO.

Blowback from the war in Afghanistan was inevitable for Pakistan from multiple factions. Pakistan had to secure its interests. No different then the actors involved.
Pakistan was a great terms from 9/11 to say 2008. A good 7-8 years. Musharaf could have negotiated far better economic terms. He negotiated a crap agreement where majority of the aid went to the military pockets and simply disapeared. Instead of 1-2 bn in military aid a year going into the militarys pocket Musharaf should have negotiated an economic package/concessions which increase our exports by maybe 5-10 bn yearly to US/Europe/Korea/Japan, which invests 1 bn in infrastructure yearly, etc... the west would have been far more receptive to this idea than giving Pakistan military weapons. You must understand how the post ww2 western world thinks. They are about commerce, making money, and the latest technologies.

There are multiple research papers on US aid to Pakistan post 1947. Many figures put the amount at 200-300 billion USD in todays terms. Where did this money go?

Open your eyes. Many european nations, israel, south korea, japan, etc.. have gotten less aid than pakistan yet are far ahead in every field. ask yourself why that after so much aid the country is in complete tatters?
 

CrazyZ

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Pakistan was a great terms from 9/11 to say 2008. A good 7-8 years. Musharaf could have negotiated far better economic terms. He negotiated a crap agreement where majority of the aid went to the military pockets and simply disapeared. There are multiple research papers on US aid to Pakistan post 1947. Many figures put the amount at 200-300 billion USD in todays terms. Where did this money go?

Open your eyes. Many european nations, israel, south korea, japan, etc.. have gotten less aid than pakistan yet are far ahead in every field. ask yourself why that after so much aid the country is in complete tatters?
USAID goes back to USA defense contractors. That's easy to get approved in congress. Open your eyes.

Idiot PPP is largely responsible for Pakistan lack of economic competitiveness . CIA was always putting them in power.
 

Air Wolf

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My intention is not to troll - pak establishment knows Americans are the biggest fools....the way they are played all these years....

Would pak be able to play similar double game against any other country (for ex: against china) while being an ally of that country?

In their double game, pak.leaders destroyed their own nation, and blame USA.

Many times, I think how much pak would have benefitted if they played straight after 9/11. You could have asked USA to set-up top class universities etc etc in pak........But being a security state, yourselves & your leaders can't think / do any better.

Now, trying to go with Russia, as if they don't have their own self-interests.

From inception, the behaviour of pak is like this (unfortunate).

Again - my intention is not to troll.

You have raised some valid points but saying that Pak played double game is giving too much credit. I wish it was a double game where in the end the real beneficiary was our country. But what we gained from 5 decades of taking dictation from US? Humiliation and destruction,,,nothing more.

It was all for personal benefits....politicians and establishment both took turns in gaining benefits. But the worry is that this same behavior will not fly with either China or Russia. They will simply move on leaving Pak standing alone.

My intention is also not to troll but you must understand that the sole reason establishment holds so much power in Pakistan is India and it's intentions to destroy Pakistan from the get go. If India had accepted Pakistan without any malice or duplicity, there wouldn't had been the need to have such strong military. But time and again it was proved and India provided that justification to our military.
 

rent4country

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Honestly, why do you guys fall for this every time? Putin, a guy whose country earns less than 2T in GDP is not offering you a blank cheque, he is offering you a way for his oil to reach you and for you to pay more in transition costs than getting from your neighbor Iran.

secondly, Putin earns a few billion from India, quit thinking he is going to give Pakistan any 'substantial/major equipment' outside of a few chotchkies to keep India in a somewhat check over their closeness with us
 

Air Wolf

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Maybe, creation of pak itself is done for wrong reasons.
And here I thought you were a rare occurrence having a sane head on your shoulders. This statement of yours is basically supporting my earlier post. Thanks for pulling me back to reality.

We know our deficiencies but at the same time also know that a bully is sitting next to us and there is only one way to keep bullies at bay...with strength.
 

Splurgenxs

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  • Russia is on Ukraine's doorstep, EU is worried ,
  • India has ringed up the border issue with china again ,
  • China is moving squadrons over Taiwan air space.
  • South Korea is flexing new jets , so is Japan.
  • Taiwan will fight to the last man , backed by ______?
  • China signs overt alignment with IRAN
  • Israel moving a lot of TOT to India
  • IRANS nuke fac gets bombed.
  • Russia is courting Pakistan.


Is this too hard to decipherer?

the back rank is moving on the chess board, the frontline pawns seems oblivious.
Who will get taken out first?
 
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FuturePAF

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unless the Indians really go through with the Quad, the Russians won’t give anything to Pakistan that could allow Pakistan to keep India in check. India has done really well building “people to people” relations with the Russians on top of that both countries see Muslims as the enemy to one extent or another.

 

mdmm

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Dear Members:
Kindly come back to the topic "" Russia offerd to Pakistan"".
While India is enjoying honeymoon with USA,
Do you think Pakistan government will take advantage of Russian offer to buy latest arms like Su-35, S-400 and helicopters ??
 

HAIDER

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Putin offers ‘blank cheque’ to Pakistan
If you [Pakistan] are interested in corridors, defence or any cooperation, Russia stands ready, says Russian president
Kamran Yousaf| April 11, 2021

View attachment 733205
Vladimir Putin and Imran Khan pose for a photo. PHOTO: AFP/FILE

ISLAMABAD:

When Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov visited Islamabad last week after a gap of nine years, he had delivered an "important" message to the Pakistani leadership. The message was from President Vladimir Putin.
"I came with a message from my president that tell Pakistan we are open for any cooperation, whatever Pakistan needs Russia is ready for it," Lavrov was quoted by a senior Pakistani official, who attended the closed door meeting between the Russian foreign minister and Pakistani authorities, as saying.
"In other words, the Russian president offered us a blank cheque," said the official, who requested not to be named because of the sensitivity of the issue.
The official revealed that Putin had conveyed to Pakistan through his top diplomat that Moscow would help Islamabad in any manner. "If you're interested in gas pipelines, corridors, defence or any other cooperation, Russia stands ready for it," the official quoted FM Lavrov as saying when asked what he meant by "blank cheque".

Pakistan and Russia are already working on the North-South gas pipeline project. The two sides had entered into the agreement in 2015 to lay a pipeline from Karachi to Lahore. The project is estimated to cost $2 billion.
The work on the pipeline could not kick off because of possible American sanctions. The two sides, however, recently agreed to approve a new structure that would pave the way for the start of the work.
Russia is also keen to revive the Pakistan Steel Mills, which it originally built. Similarly, Moscow has interest in hydroelectric projects. Overall, Russia is thought to be willing to make $8 billion investment in different areas.
"It is now up to us to follow up this successful visit," the official said.
russian fm is being received by his pakistani counterpart upon arriving at the foreign office photo twitter smqureshipti

When asked the possibility of Pakistan acquiring Russian air defence systems, the official said he could not talk about the specifics but Russia had shown willingness to expand the cooperation with Pakistan.
At the joint news conference with his Pakistani counterpart, the Russian foreign minister had said Moscow was ready to supply Pakistan with "special military equipment" to enhance its anti-terrorists potential. He, however, did not provide further details.
Relations between Pakistan and Russia have undergone transformation in recent years thanks to the new alignments and strategic realities.
The rapprochement between the former Cold War rivals began in 2011 when Pakistan's relationship with the US hit the rock bottom. At that time, a decision was taken to bring a strategic shift in Pakistan’s foreign policy. The shift envisaged reaching out to Russia as part of Pakistan’s efforts to diversify its foreign policy options.
The two countries initially worked quietly to find common ground. The years-long efforts had resulted in the Russian decision to send its troops to Pakistan for the first time in history for joint exercises in 2016. Moscow even overruled the Indian objections over holding joint drills with Pakistan.
Since then, the two countries have been regularly holding these exercises and they are looking to further deepen that cooperation.
Pakistan is hoping that Russian President Vladimir Putin would visit the country, something that would complete the Pak-Russia ties from being Cold War foes to friends.
In contrast, Russian ties with once its solid ally India are heading in the opposite direction. The two still have good relationship but the usual warmth they expressed earlier have been missing.
It was rare that the Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi did not give audience to a visiting Russian foreign minister. Russia is concerned that Indian tilt towards the US would pose threat to its interests.
It was because of these reasons, Lavrov, both in New Delhi and Islamabad, indirectly objected to the grouping of US, India, Japan and Australia.
These developments are bringing countries such as Russia, China and Pakistan together.
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@Horus @waz @The Eagle @HRK @SQ8 @AgNoStiC MuSliM @Jungibaaz @ghazi52 @Verve @koolio @Areesh @Zibago @Path-Finder
Blackmailing India to buy S400.... grab your popcorn ..fun begins ..
 

PradoTLC

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Imaginary victory?... ok like Indians can actually think they can shoot down a F16🤔
 

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