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Pulwama - From Bluster to a Whimper

airomerix

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for the highlighted in red, you must be kidding or is PAF as incompetent as IAF proved to be, not anticipating a response from a sovereign nation and that too a bully which started the hostilities
Its not always black and white.

PAF did not expect Mig 21 to put up a foolish fight. You might not digest it but its not that we were not prepared.

We were prepared but we didnt foresee getting opportunity to shoot down enemy jets.
 

MastanKhan

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The most sensible thing is to take the 'mama' in confidence. Because the MAMA knows what other kids are doing. And where other bad boys are lurking. She knows best. Listen to MAMA.
Hi,

Grown up men don't hang onto their mama's pants---. Intelligent mamas kick their grown up boys out of the house---.

According to you---earlier post---the air command was a very high ranking officer---not the standard commander---so basically he would have been sitting in the HQ---but decided to join the battle and be in the 'thick of the action'.

And yet he failed---.
 

airomerix

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According to you---earlier post---the air command was a very high ranking officer---not the standard commander---so basically he would have been sitting in the HQ---but decided to join the battle and be in the 'thick of the action'.

And yet he failed---.
He didnt fail. Shooting down Abhinandan and Flanker were very timely decisions. Flanker not so much though. Since it managed to still cross into its own territory. The sole reason why it took several seconds for the AMRAAM to hit it.
 

Flight of falcon

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He didnt fail. Shooting down Abhinandan and Flanker were very timely decisions. Flanker not so much though. Since it managed to still cross into its own territory. The sole reason why it took several seconds for the AMRAAM to hit it.

For those who doubt Fulcrum kill please note that Indians have lost a transporter on their own territory flying a routine mission on an assigned route with all emergency beacons supposedly working in clear weather. It’s been five days and they are unable to locate wreckage after FIVE days. So how hard is it to hide a fighter plane wreckage Su-30 in mountainous region ???
 

Thorough Pro

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now that has changed the meaning totally, what you meant was we anticipated their response but did not expect it from Mig 21 or didn't expect Mig21 to cross the border alone

Its not always black and white.

PAF did not expect Mig 21 to put up a foolish fight. You might not digest it but its not that we were not prepared.

We were prepared but we didnt foresee getting opportunity to shoot down enemy jets.
 

CriticalThought

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You comments simply show that you dont have any idea about actual air combat and complexities. You think its a game.

With 24 (PAF) + 8 (IAF) + 5 (Civil) aircraft in just 100-150 nm area and all making long radius turns (to conserve energy).

You have no idea what fuss it creates on the radar scopes.

And then comes the EW and Chaff garbage.

Again Kashmir area being hilly has its own effects.

It was a large force employment done by PAF/IAF first time in history. 65/71 raids were at max 10 with lil warning to enemy.

Targets needs to be verified before being shot down. The brass and AVM in the air are more concerned about blue on blue then killing a red.

You all saying facebook stuff about what to buy and what no to. Told you PAF is smarter than all of us, even IAF.

While loads itself with another platform in its AF. PAF is going to further network its datalinks so that next time AVM in air just sees the track turn to red (confirm) and then kaboom
And they told you all this classified information so you can forewarn the enemy about our plans. What bollocks! Stop acting like an insider source and go do something useful with your life.
 

HawkEye27

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And they told you all this classified information so you can forewarn the enemy about our plans. What bollocks! Stop acting like an insider source and go do something useful with your life.
Thats my opinion based on the above discussion and limited knowledge of Air Combat. You don’t like it better learn to absorb it like a good lad
 

thinkingcap81

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Its not always black and white.

PAF did not expect Mig 21 to put up a foolish fight. You might not digest it but its not that we were not prepared.

We were prepared but we didnt foresee getting opportunity to shoot down enemy jets.
As per your info and understanding, if the Mig-21 had not tried to engage with an intent to bring an aircraft down, would the PAF have fired against IAF aircraft?
 
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CriticalThought

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Thats my opinion based on the above discussion and limited knowledge of Air Combat. You don’t like it better learn to absorb it like a good lad
I despise dishonesty and I call it out when displayed blatantly. Throughout this discussion you have been peddling information that is not open source and has nothing to do with opinions. This lowers the quality of the discussion and brings ill repute to the forum.
 

HawkEye27

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I despise dishonesty and I call it out when displayed blatantly. Throughout this discussion you have been peddling information that is not open source and has nothing to do with opinions. This lowers the quality of the discussion and brings ill repute to the forum.
We all try to make a point there through our discussions with people interested in air combat and air force. You want to get restricted to the official narrative, well good then. Tell Indians to find you a wreckage of SD-10 as per Uncle Ghafoor then
 

araz

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Ghauri uses liquid fuel which takes longer to prepare, meanwhile Shaheen is solid fuel which takes less time to prepare the missile for strike.
Ghauris if I remember may have been withdrawn as Shaheen is quicker to prepare more accurate and has more or less similar range now.
A

As per your info and understanding, if the Mig-21 had not tried to engage with an intent to bring an aircraft down, would the PAF have fired against IAF aircraft?
Following rules of engagement no Air craft can be shot down if it is in its own air space. It is classed as aggression. PAF shot the ones that crossed over. If Abhi had not crossed over and his comms had not been blocked he may well have returned with his Aircraft intact. The issue of MKI that @airomerix has pointed to is part of the complexity of engaging enemy Platforms in PEACETIME.
Obviously in all out war everything is different.
A
 

thinkingcap81

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Following rules of engagement no Air craft can be shot down if it is in its own air space. It is classed as aggression. PAF shot the ones that crossed over. If Abhi had not crossed over and his comms had not been blocked he may well have returned with his Aircraft intact. The issue of MKI that @airomerix has pointed to is part of the complexity of engaging enemy Platforms in PEACETIME.
Obviously in all out war everything is different.
A
At the end of the day, all we have is the belief we have on our respective armed forces (and sources), and a bunch of circumstantial evidences.

If downing of the MKI is true then the physical evidence of the same is missing. If we can supposedly hide an entire aircraft as well as any tell-tale signs of a hit, then information blackout is also very believable. Likewise with the F-16. I have been following a couple of Indian forums also. I find it really strange that we all interpret videos, images etc. in our favour while the rest of the world keeps quite and does not even bother.

Eventually the truth will be out. We need to wait for that day.
 

araz

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At the end of the day, all we have is the belief we have on our respective armed forces (and sources), and a bunch of circumstantial evidences.

If downing of the MKI is true then the physical evidence of the same is missing. If we can supposedly hide an entire aircraft as well as any tell-tale signs of a hit, then information blackout is also very believable. Likewise with the F-16. I have been following a couple of Indian forums also. I find it really strange that we all interpret videos, images etc. in our favour while the rest of the world keeps quite and does not even bother.

Eventually the truth will be out. We need to wait for that day.
You can follow as many Indian fora as you like. 16 inventory is complete and confirmed by US sources. Now if you or your indian fora still have doubts about that then recofirm it from US sources if you want.
Re MKI I guess I have to agree with you that till the wreckage is found it will remain unconfirmed beyond doubt. IAF will NEVER accept its loss as it does not serve any advantage to it. I dont think PAF will release concrete info which is irrefutable. Alan Warne is printing something in June issue of AFM. Lets see what he has learnt.
A
PS: I dont like how you guys slyly bring in your perspective while trying to maintain a neutral attitude. The F16 debate was not part of this debate at all but you just snuck it in trying to stay under the radar. This is slimy and dirty and I dont do dirty!. I would suggest that you either display your true feelings openly and write what you believe in or stay neutral or better still OUT of this discussion. I dont mind open discussion but let your cards be on the table so debate can progress rather than acting like a slimy snake taking pot shots from behind the veil of neutrality.
 
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CriticalThought

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We all try to make a point there through our discussions with people interested in air combat and air force. You want to get restricted to the official narrative, well good then. Tell Indians to find you a wreckage of SD-10 as per Uncle Ghafoor then
You must clearly label anything not open source as your opinion. This is your ethical duty, otherwise you only discredit yourself.
 

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