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Project "AZM" : STEALTH AMBITION Project

Figaro

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May just have to stick with a Chinese engine and hope and pray our friends build a capable engine
Unless you can get Pratt and Whitney or RR to supply your engines, there are no better alternatives. China had to catch up in gas turbine technology in a very short period of time, resulting in numerous troubles/hiccups, although their work is finally paying off (note this was with a huge capital injection ... I can't think of any other country in the world who would spend more money than China in this field). As a result, all of their major aircraft has switched over to the WS-10 series now, versus the AL-31F not so long ago.
 

volatile

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Sabre-II was cancelled and has nothing to do with JF-17 Thunder.

In the 1980s, Pakistan and the US were allies against the USSR and there was no harm in PAF partnering with Northrop.

Times have changed significantly.

Today, the US refuses to deliver the AH-1Zs and sell further F-16s to Pakistan and you think there's a possibility they're going to help Pakistan design the Next Generation Fighter Aircraft?
Brother it was later 80s around 1987 and project was not cancelled bcas of US sanctions but economically unviable so please correct the facts and dont blame on Uncle Sam all the things .For AH1-Z this a complex matter as it is FMS and is linked with certain US objectives means we didnt pay shit so It is the right of US to blcok or release them .Kindly correct your facts .
There are many channels of collabration Like Lavi for J10 .US companies for Sabre projects .
 

Pakistan Space Agency

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Brother it was later 80s around 1987 and project was not cancelled bcas of US sanctions but economically unviable so please correct the facts and dont blame on Uncle Sam all the things .For AH1-Z this a complex matter as it is FMS and is linked with certain US objectives means we didnt pay shit so It is the right of US to blcok or release them .Kindly correct your facts .
There are many channels of collabration Like Lavi for J10 .US companies for Sabre projects .
Nonsense. If the US was that friendly, Pakistan would've purchased the F-35 by now with its own money not launch a decade long Project Azm.

Do you seriously think Pakistan does not have the money to pay for additional F-16s and AH-1Zs when PAF have managed to acquire over a 100 JF-17 Thunders and purchased helicopters from Turkey and Russia? Do you think that's the reason for the hold-up on additional F-16s and AH-1Zs?

The Sabre-II project was cancelled not because of sanctions but because it was not cost effective as you mentioned. But it was cancelled and the US was also upset with Pakistan over the transfer of technology knowhow from F-16s to JF-17 Thunders.

Therefore, today Pakistan cannot approach Northrop Grumman to launch another advance aircraft design project simply because the US will not allow it.
 

volatile

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Nonsense. If the US was that friendly, Pakistan would've purchased the F-35 by now with its own money not launch a decade long Project Azm.

Do you seriously think Pakistan does not have the money to pay for additional F-16s and AH-1Zs when PAF have managed to acquire over a 100 JF-17 Thunders and purchased helicopters from Turkey and Russia? Do you think that's the reason for the hold-up on additional F-16s and AH-1Zs?

The Sabre-II project was cancelled not because of sanctions but because it was not cost effective as you mentioned. But it was cancelled and the US was also upset with Pakistan over the transfer of technology knowhow from F-16s to JF-17 Thunders.

Therefore, today Pakistan cannot approach Northrop Grumman to launch another advance aircraft design project simply because the US will not allow it.
Did you forget to take your drugs today ? Calm down . My point of view we have money and we buy/collaborate when needed.Does my argument suggests other wise ? For F16 and AH1-Z these are coalition support fund money and yes we enjoy US weapons on CSF where rest of the world we buy on cash .I dont understand what are you trying to implode here ? probably a big boy stuff
 

The Eagle

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US Pakistan Relations are not the goal for topic here. Can we try by giving a bit of our efforts to stay on topic.... I am sure, its not that hard brothers. Furthermore, let's just say that someone doesn't agree with you but that means, move on without getting personal with each other.

Speaking of relations with US, it should be the last line that never expect big ticket items at all. Period.

Regards,
 

Shabi1

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There have been some screen grabs showing one of the alleged proposed clean design very similar to the cancelled F-23.

Sharing what a production F-23 might have looked like with modifications including DSI air intakes. The F-23 was considered superior to the F-22 in stealth but was not selected with one reason being Lockheed Martin was able to push their prototype YF-22 harder in demo flights.

More pictures in the above link.
Was hoping for a J-31 link to Azm but since no updates on J-31 production up so far, this design seems much better. Perhaps China only using J-31 as a test bed for technologies only.


 

CriticalThought

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It should be evident that without a customized engine with minimized heat signature and LO engine outlet, a true stealth design isn't possible. It should also be preeminently evident that PAC would be cognizant of this limitation, and will either try to overcome it through JV/outsourcing, or try to come up with a compromise like the Su-57. As far as the India/Pak scenario is concerned, PAF Alhamdulillah already has what it needs to achieve air superiority. But what happens once you achieve air superiority? Do you have enough aerial platforms that can drop enough munitions on advancing enemy columns to wipe out an entire division's worth of assets and personnel without going nuclear? Let's not forget that UAV and indigenous surface to air missiles are also very much part of Azm.
 

Pakistan Space Agency

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Did you forget to take your drugs today ? Calm down . My point of view we have money and we buy/collaborate when needed.Does my argument suggests other wise ? For F16 and AH1-Z these are coalition support fund money and yes we enjoy US weapons on CSF where rest of the world we buy on cash .I dont understand what are you trying to implode here ? probably a big boy stuff
Apologies brother if you found my post aggressive but that was not my intention at all.
 

Falcon26

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Nonsense. If the US was that friendly, Pakistan would've purchased the F-35 by now with its own money not launch a decade long Project Azm.

Do you seriously think Pakistan does not have the money to pay for additional F-16s and AH-1Zs when PAF have managed to acquire over a 100 JF-17 Thunders and purchased helicopters from Turkey and Russia? Do you think that's the reason for the hold-up on additional F-16s and AH-1Zs?

The Sabre-II project was cancelled not because of sanctions but because it was not cost effective as you mentioned.

Therefore, today Pakistan cannot approach Northrop Grumman to launch another advance aircraft design project simply because the US will not allow it.
How can you so confidently make these sorts of patently misleading and false statements? Never had the US ever accused Pakistan of taking F-16 tech and using it on the JF-17.
 

Pakistan Space Agency

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How can you so confidently make these sorts of patently misleading and false statements? Never had the US ever accused Pakistan of taking F-16 tech and using it on the JF-17.
Chief Project Director of the JF-17 Thunder program Air Marshall (Retd) Shahid Latif, revealed this in an interview by Abid Andleeb that he was warned numerous times by the US Ambassador in Pakistan not to pass F-16 technology onto China (for the JF-17 Thunder program). In his response, AM Latif says, he told the ambassador, "You can lock everything but you cannot lock my brainware (knowledge of software/avionics of the F-16s)."

Watch from 1:20 onwards.

This is why the US will not allow American Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft technology, designs and avionics to be used with the Project Azm. They will probably do their best to sabotage the program.
 
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Syed1.

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As mentioned by moderator, US-Pakistan relations aren't a topic of discussion on this thread. However, in the context of AZM why would US help Pakistan in acquiring 5th Gen fighter technology when they are trying to build up India and cosy up to them so that our 'humsaya mulk' can counter China. If anything US would be covertly helping India on their 5th Gen fighter plane.



Counter point: US could also be playing 3D chess, by assisting Pak in the development of AZM NGFA it will open up a door to sell F-35 to India, and can use Pakistan's development of an advanced fighter as justification to sell the JSF to India to 'restore regional balance'.


In any case, I personally believe we are pretty much on our own when it comes to NGFA component of AZM program. We might have collabs with China, Turkey and others for some subcomponents of the plane but overall desire is to have a jet developed by Pakistan for Pakistan, so that there no strings attached.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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As mentioned by moderator, US-Pakistan relations aren't a topic of discussion on this thread. However, in the context of AZM why would US help Pakistan in acquiring 5th Gen fighter technology when they are trying to build up India and cosy up to them so that our 'humsaya mulk' can counter China. If anything US would be covertly helping India on their 5th Gen fighter plane.



Counter point: US could also be playing 3D chess, by assisting Pak in the development of AZM NGFA it will open up a door to sell F-35 to India, and can use Pakistan's development of an advanced fighter as justification to sell the JSF to India to 'restore regional balance'.


In any case, I personally believe we are pretty much on our own when it comes to NGFA component of AZM program. We might have collabs with China, Turkey and others for some subcomponents of the plane but overall desire is to have a jet developed by Pakistan for Pakistan, so that there no strings attached.
I think we'll need to think outside of the box for sourcing an engine. Granted, Ukraine may not have the direct expertise to develop the right engine, but they have all of the R&D groundwork in engines to get to that point. What they lack is funding and scale, and with desperation our end, we can provide both. It's important that we close every gap -- we can't let relations between two other countries (e.g., US and China) affect us in any way, not now.
 

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