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Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

ProudPak

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Why sir? If they are working, they will get it.

One question: why they don't want any chinese help in NGFA? Their help can lead us to success in comparitively short time.
There are a lot of negative people on this forum. You will come across these people who talk good but at the 1st hurdle in life they quit. Do they judge others by their own deficiencies.
PAF has never revealed much dn that's the best way. Long ago Pakistan said input from China will happen on this project. On this forum 95 percent is bs and people get facts out of thin air.
I trust the men and women who actually defend our country. They are after all the ones who will fly this beast. Let's just wait and have some faith in PAF and above all Allah
 

CriticalThought

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This is why working with Turkey makes sense. The Turks actually have a roadblock they need to solve -- i.e., generating enough economies of scale and lower production costs. Pakistan can factor into both aspects through a sizable PAF purchase and the use of our domestic talent base. Sure, we may not have the capacity to do the most advanced work right now, but there are a lot of subsystems within a fighter aircraft that need testing, validation, iteration, etc that we can support. Offloading this work could either help Turkey reduce costs or free up its more experienced engineers and scientists for more advanced work.

However, the main issue with Turkey is high-risk and high-cost. But we Pakistanis can't expect high-reward without putting in the legwork. We get exactly what we pay for, for better or worse.
Let's not kid ourselves here. Given the state of industry in Pakistan, we will only be sharing the financial risk, and getting some manufacturing and testing in return. This is a lack of vision and initiative on our part. Or to put it in very stark language. we are losers who continue to think like losers.
 

RadarGudumluMuhimmat

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TFX will officially begin ground testing in 18 months. I don't think there will be a partnership with TFX after this time, if you are thinking about offset, it seems a little illogical to me, after all, why should you look at Turkey when you have China by your side? Instead, the focus should be on using Tusas' infrastructures, which will be finished within the next year, and RCS and lightning test areas are being established alongside constructions such as the giant wind tunnel. Not worth spending money on these again.
 

Indos

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TFX will officially begin ground testing in 18 months. I don't think there will be a partnership with TFX after this time, if you are thinking about offset, it seems a little illogical to me, after all, why should you look at Turkey when you have China by your side? Instead, the focus should be on using Tusas' infrastructures, which will be finished within the next year, and RCS and lightning test areas are being established alongside constructions such as the giant wind tunnel. Not worth spending money on these again.
Bro, the real prototype of TFX is Block 0, roll out in 2023 is only a mock up again. You can see CDR (Critical Design Review) is in 2024. CDR is detail design and even your schedule is very optimistic as well since KF21/IFX needs almost 2 years after the CDR in September 2019 to do the roll out of first prototype in April 2021.

1632526607837.png
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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Let's not kid ourselves here. Given the state of industry in Pakistan, we will only be sharing the financial risk, and getting some manufacturing and testing in return. This is a lack of vision and initiative on our part. Or to put it in very stark language. we are losers who continue to think like losers.
It goes to the point: If we have leverage, we should ask for more. If we lack the leverage, then we need to take a step back and create said leverage so we can take 6-7 steps forward.

IMO at this point, the only workable scenario I actually see is: (1) we acquire off-the-shelf fighters for the next 10-15 years, but in parallel we (2) use those 10-15 years to build our R&D capacity, generate valuable IP, and produce something of value (doesn't have to be a whole fighter, but expertise in flight control tech can be a start). That development would be our leverage to leap 6-7 steps forward.

Unfortunately, who's going to pay for the R&D if the money's going into off-the-shelf fighters? Our general understanding of economics is like that of buying and selling DHA plots, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

CriticalThought

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It goes to the point: If we have leverage, we should ask for more. If we lack the leverage, then we need to take a step back and create said leverage so we can take 6-7 steps forward.

IMO at this point, the only workable scenario I actually see is: (1) we acquire off-the-shelf fighters for the next 10-15 years, but in parallel we (2) use those 10-15 years to build our R&D capacity, generate valuable IP, and produce something of value (doesn't have to be a whole fighter, but expertise in flight control tech can be a start). That development would be our leverage to leap 6-7 steps forward.

Unfortunately, who's going to pay for the R&D if the money's going into off-the-shelf fighters? Our general understanding of economics is like that of buying and selling DHA plots, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Unfortunately, you have the wrong concept of capability building. There are two ways of doing it:

1. Create new technology that then enables the next generation of fighter planes.
2. Use existing technology in novel ways to create a good example of current generation.

What you are describing is 1, and this is beyond our league. We are much more suited towards number 2. Now, there are two ways to achieve 2:

a. Acquire expertise in the entire spectrum of aerospace technologies to build everything from grounds up.
b. Incrementally build expertise.

Again, what you are describing is closer to a, whereas we need b. We have the JF-17 Thunder, we have a need for medium weight fighters, we need to iterate on what we already have to produce what we immediately need. This is how you build capability.
 

Indos

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It goes to the point: If we have leverage, we should ask for more. If we lack the leverage, then we need to take a step back and create said leverage so we can take 6-7 steps forward.

IMO at this point, the only workable scenario I actually see is: (1) we acquire off-the-shelf fighters for the next 10-15 years, but in parallel we (2) use those 10-15 years to build our R&D capacity, generate valuable IP, and produce something of value (doesn't have to be a whole fighter, but expertise in flight control tech can be a start). That development would be our leverage to leap 6-7 steps forward.

Unfortunately, who's going to pay for the R&D if the money's going into off-the-shelf fighters? Our general understanding of economics is like that of buying and selling DHA plots, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Pakistan needs to have long term road map on their aerospace sector. Indonesia for example has 2016-2040 road map for aerospace and space sector and everything should be transparant so people outside the government research agency can give input or critics. Thus it will be a nation aim, not just one agency/company ambition
 

RadarGudumluMuhimmat

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Bro, the real prototype of TFX is Block 0, roll out in 2023 is only a mock up again. You can see CDR (Critical Design Review) is in 2024. CDR is detail design and even your schedule is very optimistic as well since KF21/IFX needs almost 2 years after the CDR in September 2019 to do the roll out of first prototype in April 2021.

View attachment 779953
In order for what you call a design review to continue, the plane has to leave the hangar, my dear. What do you understand from the exit from the hangar?
 
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@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD
You are suggesting PAF to work with Turkish TFX but what about engine?TFX will become another F16 for us due to its British engine.so better leave it and work on our own design with Russian or even Chinese engine in mind.do not you see Pakistan is making huge progress in military technologies from 2015.we just need ambitious leadership.l am sure we can do it but slowly and steadily.This decade is highly important for us.I hope PAF will not join TFX where only some minor technologies will be transferred to us.this will become another JF 17 project.
 

Rana4pak

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@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD
You are suggesting PAF to work with Turkish TFX but what about engine?TFX will become another F16 for us due to its British engine.so better leave it and work on our own design with Russian or even Chinese engine in mind.do not you see Pakistan is making huge progress in military technologies from 2015.we just need ambitious leadership.l am sure we can do it but slowly and steadily.This decade is highly important for us.I hope PAF will not join TFX where only some minor technologies will be transferred to us.this will become another JF 17 project.
The most thing is Engine Pakistan should develop with Russia ,China or with help of Ukraine or do joint ventures with Turkey for tot of engine technology
 
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The most thing is Engine Pakistan should develop with Russia ,China or with help of Ukraine or do joint ventures with Turkey for tot of engine technology
No one will give us engine technology.
Ukraine can give us if we invest there but our leaders will lose this chance also
 

Indos

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In order for what you call a design review to continue, the plane has to leave the hangar, my dear. What do you understand from the exit from the hangar?
This is the step to make a plane

1. Preliminary Design (basic design)
2. Detail Design ( Critical Design Review is a stage where detail design almost complete)
3. Make a prototype

You cannot make a plane before detail design is completed

If you look on the schedule, detail design phase is started in 2023

The one that will be rolled out in 2023 is only a mock up, and the real prototype is Block 0
 
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Ali_Baba

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TFX will officially begin ground testing in 18 months. I don't think there will be a partnership with TFX after this time, if you are thinking about offset, it seems a little illogical to me, after all, why should you look at Turkey when you have China by your side? Instead, the focus should be on using Tusas' infrastructures, which will be finished within the next year, and RCS and lightning test areas are being established alongside constructions such as the giant wind tunnel. Not worth spending money on these again.
Every country wants to build their own infrastructure to support the development of fast militart jets - that is only natural.
 
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This is the step to make a plane

1. Preliminary Design (basic design)
2. Detail Design ( Critical Design Review is a stage where detail design almost complete)
3. Make a prototype

You cannot make a plane before detail design is completed

If you look on the schedule, detail design phase is started in 2023

The one that will be rolled out in 2023 is only a mock up, and the real prototype is Block 0
Bhai can you explain in detail what will Indonesia learn by 20 percent stake in KFX? How much this will lift Indonesian aerospace industry?
 

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