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ProudPak

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As you say....your limited view.

Bl
I did not say PAF is sleeping. All I am saying in my limited view: my preference would have been to develop modular modern capabilities in areas I identified. I think mastering some of these areas gives us ability to not only enhance our existing fleet, but eventually mate them together with external suppliers to develop a modern UCAV. Manned fighters will likely be phased out in 30 years. UCAVs will dominate the skies, or at a minimum will be complementary to manned flight operations. So my approach would have been more central in that direction. Again who am I to say anything, after all what do I know about applied technologies.
Block 1 jf17 is modular yet you don't even know that. I suggest you find out about the program before rubbishing it. Had it been made by gora shahib you would have worshipped it even if it was a dodo
 

FuturePAF

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I think the Turks froze the general design of the TFX. Remember, they contracted BAE to help for a few years (and I think the help is ongoing), so changing it beyond marginal stuff is an added cost. If the PAF is genuinely interested, it'll have to sign onto the TAI/BAE concept.

View attachment 765537

That said, there might be some room for flexibility re: the engine.

The TR Motor powerplant will likely be far out, so if a big PAF order rests on integrating WS-10 or AL-31, the design of an 'eastern-ized' sub-variant might be tenable.

Ironically, ordering the J-10CE may open the door for the TFX. If the PAF thinks the J-10CE can deliver on its needs for the 2020s and early 2030s, then AHQ may be good with the risks and timelines of the TFX. Obviously, the TFX is ahead on the development curve compared to AZM, but it's still an original project, it has risks. However, if the TFX runs into snags, then the PAF will lean on additional J-10CEs. Until India introduces a FGFA, the J-10CE should be a credible asset against 4+/4.5+ threats.

IMO, the PAF's target fleet mix for 2047 might be:
  • 90+ TFX
  • ~150 J-10CE
  • ~188 JF-17s
That mix seems decent considering the somewhat realistic Indians know thelimits of what they are most likely to procure. Pakistan should consider retiring the JF-17 line, and moving on to domestic production of the J-10 as a way to transition to the T-FX, and have a domestic line to produce parts and maintain the J-10. A large order/domestic production for the J-10, over the course of the next 10-15 years could help push for further development of the aircraft (internally, not a change to the design), in a similar manner to the JF-17’s block building approach.


BTW, are our fighter squadrons always made of up of 18 aircraft?
 
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akramishaqkhan

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As you say....your limited view.

Bl

Block 1 jf17 is modular yet you don't even know that. I suggest you find out about the program before rubbishing it. Had it been made by gora shahib you would have worshipped it even if it was a dodo
What a banal and strange response to a legitimate observation @ProudPak.

I never rubbished the JF17 program. I was stating my pref for developing some critical sub-technologies as I listed, as those could be the basis for building strong platforms (planes or UCAVs). And you bring in strangeness of things like "Gora Shahib etc". What strange mentality to have in a forum meant to discuss openly. I feel sorry for your cranial void.
 

JamD

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I think the Turks froze the general design of the TFX. Remember, they contracted BAE to help for a few years (and I think the help is ongoing), so changing it beyond marginal stuff is an added cost. If the PAF is genuinely interested, it'll have to sign onto the TAI/BAE concept.

View attachment 765537

That said, there might be some room for flexibility re: the engine.

The TR Motor powerplant will likely be far out, so if a big PAF order rests on integrating WS-10 or AL-31, the design of an 'eastern-ized' sub-variant might be tenable.

Ironically, ordering the J-10CE may open the door for the TFX. If the PAF thinks the J-10CE can deliver on its needs for the 2020s and early 2030s, then AHQ may be good with the risks and timelines of the TFX. Obviously, the TFX is ahead on the development curve compared to AZM, but it's still an original project, it has risks. However, if the TFX runs into snags, then the PAF will lean on additional J-10CEs. Until India introduces a FGFA, the J-10CE should be a credible asset against 4+/4.5+ threats.

IMO, the PAF's target fleet mix for 2047 might be:
  • 90+ TFX
  • ~150 J-10CE
  • ~188 JF-17s
It feels like that for now the only option for the PAF heavy FGFA is a jet somewhere on a slider between Azm and TFX - with Azm being a 100% local attempt and TFX being a mostly direct buy.

Let's see where we end up on that slider. We should know for sure 2 years from now :)
 

ProudPak

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What a banal and strange response to a legitimate observation @ProudPak.

I never rubbished the JF17 program. I was stating my pref for developing some critical sub-technologies as I listed, as those could be the basis for building strong platforms (planes or UCAVs). And you bring in strangeness of things like "Gora Shahib etc". What strange mentality to have in a forum meant to discuss openly. I feel sorry for your cranial void.
Even after your 2nd reply you stuck to the fact the jf17 isn't a modular design when I informed you right at the beginning it was. You inability to learn is your downfall.
Gora shahib issues are spot on as you people have the self defeatist attitude that our people cannot possible design something good.
I bet still you think jf17 isn't a modular design with plug and play and minimal effort tech upgrades at the design core.
 

akramishaqkhan

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Even after your 2nd reply you stuck to the fact the jf17 isn't a modular design when I informed you right at the beginning it was. You inability to learn is your downfall.
Gora shahib issues are spot on as you people have the self defeatist attitude that our people cannot possible design something good.
I bet still you think jf17 isn't a modular design with plug and play and minimal effort tech upgrades at the design core.
You do realize I was never talking about JF17. I was talking about Azm and sharing my pref around techs we should invest in. From your response there is something strange about you. You will be disregarded as at the min you lack the means of having an honest discussion without getting personal. You could however be someone fishing for information and that is becoming quite obvious. Say hello to your "as you said" personal friend Shahid.
 

akramishaqkhan

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Oh dear.... there is stupid and there is you.


If jf17 is modular and you are barking about modular design for project azm . You don't even know that project azm is not one aircraft and you are talking here. Please don't reply....I think you come from a line of stupidity that love to argue instead of learn and improve. Good luck being stupid. And say hi to your friend modi ache chai wala he is as smart as you. At least shahid started the jf17 program and was not only a fighter pilot but completed the f16 conversion course in record time. Go Google and learn.
Welcome to ignore. You made it
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Scorpio_26
So if I understand you are triggered so bad because of my post as follows:

We are designing for the past. BTT this is developed countries would be 2-3 gens ahead of us. Pace of tech innovation is accelerating. Our end product will be severely challenged by the time it becomes operational. I would have invested the Azm project into the following areas:
Modular approach to develop key technologies.

1) Computer Vision
2) AI engines and edge processing
3) Material sciences (for surfaces)
4) Electro-optical technologies (& countermeasures)
5) Nav/Sat comms suite
6) Autonomous Intelligence Engine & Threat Management
7) EW integration

In a nutshell technologies that will enable me to develop a modern UCAV, as long as I can get some good engine technologies as well as missiles, I would have critical areas developed to enable me to bring together a compelling UCAV platform.


I mean I don't even know where to start. I know your immediate reaction is name calling etc., so not even sure why I am wasting my time. I will stand by my initial post. The mere fact that you don't have a sense of where PK is in terms of material sciences, or where we are in terms of CV/AI/Edge processing, speaks to your level of technical understanding of Pakistan's capabilities.

When I say modular design I am not saying the design parameters of a platform are modular or not (I am sure J17 and Azm are designed in modular construct - most complex engineering systems are modularized). I am saying focus in on modular aspects of platform development. That these modules are a more palatable and achievable process for our industry's maturity. That build unique IP in these areas, not just integrate through OEM sourcing or OEM authorized manufacturing. That develop and define deep research and development capabilities in the 7 areas identified above, while integrating R&D through research projects at a broad set of academic and private institutions. Because over the long term this is the true value for a country. It helps build the technical culture, and foundations for a nation, not to mention has a great impact on the economic empowerment of a country as many of these techs have commercial applications.

Since AM Shahid Lateef discloses to you on his weekly dinner meetings with you on the key developmental aspects of PAF, I will beg your forgiveness your Lordship. All knowing and all seeing. I am perfectly happy staying "stupid" as you classified me.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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It feels like that for now the only option for the PAF heavy FGFA is a jet somewhere on a slider between Azm and TFX - with Azm being a 100% local attempt and TFX being a mostly direct buy.

Let's see where we end up on that slider. We should know for sure 2 years from now :)
IMO anything between the two would mean joining the TFX as a partner and getting a workshare deal in place that matches our funding and R&D contribution. I don't know if our industry would ever learn how to independently integrate weapons of its choice to a platform, but by joining a consortium, we may be able to get a say where it matters. However, knowing the risk-averse nature of our decision-makers, I don't think we would be more than a 10% partner in the TFX. I'd be impressed if we reach 25%. It might be easier for us if the Turks go ahead with their eastern Airbus/brownbus vision.
 

Ahmet Pasha

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@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Scorpio_26
So if I understand you are triggered so bad because of my post as follows:

We are designing for the past. BTT this is developed countries would be 2-3 gens ahead of us. Pace of tech innovation is accelerating. Our end product will be severely challenged by the time it becomes operational. I would have invested the Azm project into the following areas:
Modular approach to develop key technologies.

1) Computer Vision
2) AI engines and edge processing
3) Material sciences (for surfaces)
4) Electro-optical technologies (& countermeasures)
5) Nav/Sat comms suite
6) Autonomous Intelligence Engine & Threat Management
7) EW integration

In a nutshell technologies that will enable me to develop a modern UCAV, as long as I can get some good engine technologies as well as missiles, I would have critical areas developed to enable me to bring together a compelling UCAV platform.


I mean I don't even know where to start. I know your immediate reaction is name calling etc., so not even sure why I am wasting my time. I will stand by my initial post. The mere fact that you don't have a sense of where PK is in terms of material sciences, or where we are in terms of CV/AI/Edge processing, speaks to your level of technical understanding of Pakistan's capabilities.

When I say modular design I am not saying the design parameters of a platform are modular or not (I am sure J17 and Azm are designed in modular construct - most complex engineering systems are modularized). I am saying focus in on modular aspects of platform development. That these modules are a more palatable and achievable process for our industry's maturity. That build unique IP in these areas, not just integrate through OEM sourcing or OEM authorized manufacturing. That develop and define deep research and development capabilities in the 7 areas identified above, while integrating R&D through research projects at a broad set of academic and private institutions. Because over the long term this is the true value for a country. It helps build the technical culture, and foundations for a nation, not to mention has a great impact on the economic empowerment of a country as many of these techs have commercial applications.

Since AM Shahid Lateef discloses to you on his weekly dinner meetings with you on the key developmental aspects of PAF, I will beg your forgiveness your Lordship. All knowing and all seeing. I am perfectly happy staying "stupid" as you classified me.
Bro EW and counter EW is going to be such a huge factor in future wars with drones and whatnot.
 

Battlion25

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It feels like that for now the only option for the PAF heavy FGFA is a jet somewhere on a slider between Azm and TFX - with Azm being a 100% local attempt and TFX being a mostly direct buy.

Let's see where we end up on that slider. We should know for sure 2 years from now :)
I agree we will know in the next 2 years
 

DJ_Viper

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That mix seems decent considering the somewhat realistic Indians know thelimits of what they are most likely to procure. Pakistan should consider retiring the JF-17 line, and moving on to domestic production of the J-10 as a way to transition to the T-FX, and have a domestic line to produce parts and maintain the J-10. A large order/domestic production for the J-10, over the course of the next 10-15 years could help push for further development of the aircraft (internally, not a change to the design), in a similar manner to the JF-17’s block building approach.
I like your post. Very reasonable, sensible and within reach. Nice analysis.


BTW, are our fighter squadrons always made of up of 18 aircraft?
He forgot F-35 for India? LM will offer it to India. If he thinks those will only go to the IN, the fact is that India shares a border with China, so some units would have to go to the IAF too. I think that had to be a part of the reason calculated behind starting Pakistan's AZM...
 

jupiter2007

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Realistically we don’t have the resources and infrastructure to build AZM 5th Generation fighter independently. We will end up asking for help from China or Turkey or both.
 

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