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Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

Nasr

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The turkish Hurjet engine for the TFX is entirely indigenous. It is not about being independent but it is about getting experience and pretty much getting the final products at your hand. Russian tech is currently really not that good and haven't produced anything good since the soviet era. If some minor components were from the West or if even Pakistan team-up with EU countries I don't see the issue not saying that this will be the case as west cooperation is not needed at this point.. Pakistan has already people to deliver that

Building an engine for jet-trainer is one thing, whereas design, development and build of an engine for a fifth generation stealth combat aircraft is an entirely different arena all together.

I have serious doubts of Turkey being able to design, develop and build, high performance, long endurance and with substantial TBO stats .... on its own. There are very few nations on earth that have the money, R&D and manufacturing base to develop engines for fifth generation fighters. And Turkey is not one of those nations.

In my view, Turkey has a far greater chance of success, if it collaborates with other engine designing nations, than going at it alone. Best example of that mind-set, is india, which has failed miserably to develop its own fighter-jet engines. india bled money, lost a substantial amount of time and still has neither an engine nor a fifth generation aircraft, to show for all its efforts.

China on the other hand, poured money, intellectual resources, a significant amount of time and established a full spectrum industry to design, develop and manufacture engines for not just fighter-jets and trainer-jets, but also large military cargo aircraft. China is also developing its own Commercial Jetliners. It takes sheer will and unrelenting determination to accomplish such a feat. Not to mention a ton of money and having a large pool of brain power and research facilities.
 

The Eagle

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New Model of Project Azm Revealed.

View attachment 722241
Tried to zoom in and found that it is a TFX model given the markings on stabilizer.

But there are rumors that Pakistan is talking with some third party for practical assistance in developing next Generation jet fighters, Project Azm 5th Generation ??
Members. How do you guess , will this jet be ready within next 5 years or 10 years ?
Not the Rumor my friend. CAS is on record that Pakistan will work together with friends as well.
 

Mohamed Bin Tughlaq

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Building an engine for jet-trainer is one thing, whereas design, development and build of an engine for a fifth generation stealth combat aircraft is an entirely different arena all together.

I have serious doubts of Turkey being able to design, develop and build, high performance, long endurance and with substantial TBO stats .... on its own. There are very few nations on earth that have the money, R&D and manufacturing base to develop engines for fifth generation fighters. And Turkey is not one of those nations.

In my view, Turkey has a far greater chance of success, if it collaborates with other engine designing nations, than going at it alone. Best example of that mind-set, is india, which has failed miserably to develop its own fighter-jet engines. india bled money, lost a substantial amount of time and still has neither an engine nor a fifth generation aircraft, to show for all its efforts.

China on the other hand, poured money, intellectual resources, a significant amount of time and established a full spectrum industry to design, develop and manufacture engines for not just fighter-jets and trainer-jets, but also large military cargo aircraft. China is also developing its own Commercial Jetliners. It takes sheer will and unrelenting determination to accomplish such a feat. Not to mention a ton of money and having a large pool of brain power and research facilities.
You try to say things that make sense but if you look closer it defeats itself completely. It is like a glass with multiple holes that can't hold water.

First of all money doesn't build you engines or new tech. You can pour into projects as much money as you want. It won't change anything and hack you can spend a trillion dollar on a single given project but if there is no ''INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY'' you are going nowhere?

Where do you find ''INTERLLECTUAL PROPERTY'' that is the question and that can only be found in ''Divinely gifted individuals'' They don't fall from the skies nor do they grow on trees? This is the difference in all the tech world you see today.. INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY..

So I ask you this question again? What makes you so confident that China is in possession of more gifted ppl then Turkey currently? This is a question you can't answer? Because if Turkey is in possession of more gifted then they would outdo china in tech even if their budget is 20 times less.

When it comes to tech building alot of people in this thread don't understand the fundamentals and what to look for and how to get things done. Some even believe budget can win someone arms race when it comes down to defense industry but that is not true but only ''INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY'' can and you don't know what Turkey is in possession of currrently.

Example a small insignificiant country could have more ''INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY'' at any given time compared to a large one etc etc. It is something that can flip-flop back and forth in decades.

It is irresponsible and flat out incorrect from a scientifically point of view to say countries can't build an engine.. It is a major fallacy.

Example: If a boy born in Sri-lanka is gifted he can build an engine never seen before in his garage before he hits puberty as if it was nothing?

You understand what I mean Now? with ''INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY''

Experience, budget etc etc All that stuff doesn't further you much but ''INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY'' does
 
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TNT

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You try to say things that make sense but if you look closer it defeats itself completely. It is like a glass with multiple holes that can't hold water.

First of all money doesn't build you engines or new tech. You can pour into projects as much money as you want. It won't change anything and hack you can spend a trillion dollar on a single given project but if there is no ''INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY'' you are going nowhere?

Where do you find ''INTERLLECTUAL PROPERTY'' that is the question and that can only be found in ''Divinely gifted individuals'' They don't fall from the skies nor do they grow on trees? This is the difference in all the tech world you see today.. INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY..

So I ask you this question again? What makes you so confident that China is in possession of more gifted ppl then Turkey currently? This is a question you can't answer? Because if Turkey is in possession of more gifted then they would outdo china in tech even if their budget is 20 times less.

When it comes to tech building alot of people in this thread don't understand the fundamentals and what to look for and how to get things done. Some even believe budget can win someone arms race when it comes down to defense industry but that is not true but only ''INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY'' can and you don't know what Turkey is in possession of currrently.

Example a small insignificiant country could have more ''INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY'' at any given time compared to a large one etc etc. It is something that can flip-flop back and forth in decades.

It is irresponsible and flat out incorrect from a scientifically point of view to say countries can't build an engine.. It is a major fallacy.

Example: If a boy born in Sri-lanka is gifted he can build an engine never seen before in his garage before he hits puberty as if it was nothing?

You understand what I mean Now? with ''INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY''

Experience, budget etc etc All that stuff doesn't further you much but ''INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY'' does
You are somewhat correct but u put too much emohasis on IP. Modern engine designing and manufacturing is at the very front of cutting edge technology. It requires modern composite materials, way advanced molding techniques, way way advanced manufacturing machines. Turkey no doubt is on the right path and its just a matter of time before they comeup with a good engine. How long this time will be, depends on many many aspects and not just intellectual property.
 

Mohamed Bin Tughlaq

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You are somewhat correct but u put too much emohasis on IP. Modern engine designing and manufacturing is at the very front of cutting edge technology. It requires modern composite materials, way advanced molding techniques, way way advanced manufacturing machines. Turkey no doubt is on the right path and its just a matter of time before they comeup with a good engine. How long this time will be, depends on many many aspects and not just intellectual property.
No. Intellectual property is the key to everything. Without it nothing goes. You can even find IP that is insanely gifted and beyond anything seen before in obsecure places inside rural areas if you are lucky and search right and with just that Intellectual property only you can develop newer technology never seen before without using alot of budget. This is key why you must get hold of all the superkids and don't let them venture outside your borders and hire them immediately everything lays with them.

Lets assume you have around top trained 1000 engineers and to be honest they won't be able to build an engine. Lets say they are highly educated professionals and what not they won't be able to build an engine but a superkid or a gifted intellectual property can do it in no time and he can teach them the fundamentals but the key is always intellectual property not experience at all.

I often see overused narratives that are incorrect like such and such have been trying to develop since the 60s yada yada. That narrative doesn't hold water as whatever they build is either stolen intellectual property or what they got from the intellectual property they found that is working for them
 
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Irfan Baloch

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First of all money doesn't build you engines or new tech. You can pour into projects as much money as you want. It won't change anything and hack you can spend a trillion dollar on a single given project but if there is no ''INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY'' you are going nowhere?

Where do you find ''INTERLLECTUAL PROPERTY'' that is the question and that can only be found in ''Divinely gifted individuals'' They don't fall from the skies nor do they grow on trees? This is the difference in all the tech world you see today.. INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY..
if we look at the news and stories that come out about our standard of education. the common practices of the students and the teaching institutions then the future doesn't look very promising.
if we do get some brilliant beings out of this repressive and depressive environment then thats only because of their own efforts and born gifts that triumph over all the hurdles in our country.
the story of PAF, PAC and JF-17 and finally project AZM itself is nothing short of a miracle the people have come out of the same pool of people where cheating, deceit and lying is a norm to make things worse we are bankrupt from monetary side as well.
PAF leadership has set some ambitious timelines of 2028., that of course includes Chinese partnership and from rest of the world (Turkey most likely). whatever route is taken to achieve remains to be seen.
 

Mohamed Bin Tughlaq

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if we look at the news and stories that come out about our standard of education. the common practices of the students and the teaching institutions then the future doesn't look very promising.
if we do get some brilliant beings out of this repressive and depressive environment then thats only because of their own efforts and born gifts that triumph over all the hurdles in our country.
Finding gifted individuals happens outside of the educational systems and they are just gifted and their gifts have nothing to do with any educational system since they are already ahead of all educational systems it plays no role for them nor hinderes them nor further their case.

The key thing to do here is for Pakistan to develop a new hunt group that elusively searches up superkids and hires them immediately and that comes with also taking care of their families and settling them in new areas and putting them in new schools for superkids only and then hiring them already as toddlers and giving them training and special schooling.

The sad part is that Pakistan is producing per capita alot of these kids as I have seen in another thread and they hold many records and some of them recruited by microsoft and other american companies you have to prevent from this happening keep tight to them
 

Goenitz

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So I ask you this question again? What makes you so confident that China is in possession of more gifted ppl then Turkey currently?
the story of PAF, PAC and JF-17 and finally project AZM itself is nothing short of a miracle
You meant intellectual property=patents? right.

anyway, you may have or will realise that intelligence is one thing but it is not a shortcut to hardwork. Competency, grows when you practise repeatedly. A sheer determination is a next thing which help you find the ways around a problem.
Chinese are very hardworking people. Their persistence let them explore the techs which they cannot borrow from west.

The key thing to do here is for Pakistan to develop a new hunt group that elusively searches up superkids and hires them immediately and that comes with also taking care of their families and settling them in new areas and putting them in new schools for superkids only and then hiring them already as toddlers and giving them training and special schooling
Not the same but I argue that our graduates are tangible assets.. if we don't utilise them then they end up being teacher, CSS officers or 9-5 office workers. To increase their potential we need mobility to economical West countries for higher education. So they can learn more contemporary things in west universities and industries.. I will tag you there..
 

Mohamed Bin Tughlaq

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You meant intellectual property=patents? right.

anyway, you may have or will realise that intelligence is one thing but it is not a shortcut to hardwork. Competency, grows when you practise repeatedly. A sheer determination is a next thing which help you find the ways around a problem.
Chinese are very hardworking people. Their persistence let them explore the techs which they cannot borrow from west.


Not the same but I argue that our graduates are tangible assets.. if we don't utilise them then they end up being teacher, CSS officers or 9-5 office workers. To increase their potential we need mobility to economical West countries for higher education. So they can learn more contemporary things in west universities and industries.. I will tag you there..
I am from the west and believe me their is nothing they can teach that is relevant that you can't do anywhere else plus a gifted individual can't be thought alot they become teachers. You just gotta give them the basic early schooling period and put them in the science universities.

When it comes down to defense industry it is a matter of life and death which means it doesn't lack motivaion or any hardwork. Specifically when you got Nuclear bombs pointed at you? There is no shortage of motivations and if they were not it would be bizarre.

It could save lives and generations from a cruel demise at hand that is unseen to them but may occur in the future so this matter is between life and death. Time is of great essence. Every second and every minute is crucial
 
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Goenitz

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I am from the west and believe me their is nothing they can teach that is relevant that you can't do anywhere else plus a gifted individual can't be thought alot they become teachers. You just gotta give them the basic early schooling period and put them in the science universities.

When it comes down to defense industry it is a matter of life and death which means it doesn't lack motivaion or any hardwork.

It could save lives and generations from a cruel demise at hand that is unseen to them but may occur in the future so this matter is between life and death. Time is of great essence. Every second and every minute is crucial
I know that the curriculum is not different but believe me sir, the method is.
I argued in my threads that we have many young software professionals and A+ achievers in A/O-levels. Which shows that we have gifted/intelligent individuals but we cannot capitalise them to scientists. The reason is we lack a pool of scientist at first place, which can train our graduates.
Simple, comparison. PhD+one paper=assistant Prof in Pak
in UK PhD+one paper make you lab or teacher assistant. Then comes assit Lecturer, then lecturer then after years of experience you become asst Prof in west.
 

Mohamed Bin Tughlaq

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I know that the curriculum is not different but believe me sir, the method is.
I argued in my threads that we have many young software professionals and A+ achievers in A/O-levels. Which shows that we have gifted/intelligent individuals but we cannot capitalise them to scientists. The reason is we lack a pool of scientist at first place, which can train our graduates.
Simple, comparison. PhD+one paper=assistant Prof in Pak
in UK PhD+one paper make you lab or teacher assistant. Then comes assit Lecturer, then lecturer then after years of experience you become asst Prof in west.
PhD and all of that stuff is irrelevant. In order to fix this you have to simplify things because believe me as someone who has taken university all these fancy titles means nothing. As I mentioned having 100-million scientists will not build anything new or engines if the intellectual property is not there.

What can be done is new system all together get rid of all the fancy titles as nobody has time for that anyways. Superkids go to special schools exclusive to them so that they get a different type of education outside of all the known curriculum. By the way we don't need people who are smart or university students we need superkids period. So the entire curriculum is irrelevant to our quest.

Building a special state build university only for superkids and here again this is outside of the curriculum where they can be thought directly by these who work on the defense industry themselves, This is cost effieint and much more effective and straight to the case. You don't need to waste these superkids time with the regular curriculum or dragging them across irrelevant places. Their brains are already far ahead of normal kids a 6 year old superkid can do maths that 17 or 18 year olds can't do anyways
 
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Goenitz

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By the way we don't need people who are smart or university students we need superkids period
You don't need to waste these superkids times with the regular curriculum
Are you suggesting vocational training just? I guess that yes, our education system/model is too old. Our students lack problem solving, innovation and analysis despite having degrees.

anyway, determining superkids is not easy. Nearly, a 120 IQ person can do everything. 130 IQ is an exceptional thing but are many in any society. 140+ IQ is rare unless society or culture is very engaging and productive. Even IQ test cannot determine a superkid as humans are so complex.

Anyway, in my experience only hardwork grows you and intelligence comes second.
 

Mohamed Bin Tughlaq

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Are you suggesting vocational training just? I guess that yes, our education system/model is too old. Our students lack problem solving, innovation and analysis despite having degrees.

anyway, determining superkids is not easy. Nearly, a 120 IQ person can do everything. 130 IQ is an exceptional thing but are many in any society. 140+ IQ is rare unless society or culture is very engaging and productive. Even IQ test cannot determine a superkid as humans are so complex.

Anyway, in my experience only hardwork grows you and intelligence comes second.
What I mean by outside of the curriculum is special designed one for them as they are far ahead of normal kids anyways. You can teach them hardwork as you shape them.

But hardwork can't produce what I am about to show you below.. All these are Pakistani superkids! You can't feed them normal curriculum it is counter-productive you see what I mean. They belong to a completely different league alltogether.

Muhammad Humza Shahzad: The 6 Year Old Microsoft Professional


world’s youngest computer programmer


Haris Khan-Youngest Smartphone Developer At The Age Of 11




Ayan Qureshi: The Youngest MCP Professional In The World



12. Babar Iqbal- Youngest Certified Internet Web Professional (CIWA) At The Age Of Nine


Currently working at the Microsoft Office in Dubai, Babar Iqbal is the youngest IEEE Researcher. He became the youngest Certified Internet Web Professional (CIWA) at the age of nine.
 
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TNT

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No. Intellectual property is the key to everything. Without it nothing goes. You can even find IP that is insanely gifted and beyond anything seen before in obsecure places inside rural areas if you are lucky and search right and with just that Intellectual property only you can develop newer technology never seen before without using alot of budget. This is key why you must get hold of all the superkids and don't let them venture outside your borders and hire them immediately everything lays with them.

Lets assume you have around top trained 1000 engineers and to be honest they won't be able to build an engine. Lets say they are highly educated professionals and what not they won't be able to build an engine but a superkid or a gifted intellectual property can do it in no time and he can teach them the fundamentals but the key is always intellectual property not experience at all.

I often see overused narratives that are incorrect like such and such have been trying to develop since the 60s yada yada. That narrative doesn't hold water as whatever they build is either stolen intellectual property or what they got from the intellectual property they found that is working for them
I guess ur not understanding the meaning of intellectual property, it does not necessarily means a person with powerful brain. Ur logic is flawed, if u have very smart kids in village as u said, will he learn how to build an engine in mother's womb??? No matter how genius one is, if there is no previous experience or extensive R&D, he/she cannot design an engine. Even if a smart kid deaigns an engine, where do u get the materials from? How do u manufacture materials that can sustain extremely high temperatures and pressure?? Im sorry but ur view of technology is that of the 60s and 70s, times have changed and technology have gone way beyond the capability of few ppl with naturally gifted brains.
 

Mohamed Bin Tughlaq

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I guess ur not understanding the meaning of intellectual property, it does not necessarily means a person with powerful brain. Ur logic is flawed, if u have very smart kids in village as u said, will he learn how to build an engine in mother's womb??? No matter how genius one is, if there is no previous experience or extensive R&D, he/she cannot design an engine. Even if a smart kid deaigns an engine, where do u get the materials from? How do u manufacture materials that can sustain extremely high temperatures and pressure?? Im sorry but ur view of technology is that of the 60s and 70s, times have changed and technology have gone way beyond the capability of few ppl with naturally gifted brains.
Times haven't moved past that era and the future still lays with few gifted individuals this has been the sunnah of the world ever since it is created few made big changes.

I never said they would build from the wombs lol and you have to read carefully what I said. You give them a tailor made education to them elusively not the regular curriculum as it is irrelevant by default. They are very advanced individuals so you give them things suitable to them and by the age of 18-20s you hire them officially. The schooling + university has to be specialized program exlusive to them only. which Means their early schooling could be over by the age of 14-15 and then they enter their specialized university after that and it ends around 18-20ish and then you put them directly on the frontline in the defense industry.

The specialized university could be build inside the defense industry where people working on the defense industry directly take charge of it and teach these kids. You send superkids to different programs such as Azm, Tanks, heli, navy, space etc etc all different programs you send few superkids to them and they give them the university lessons themselves so they become a tailor made specialists in this specific genre
 
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