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Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

JamD

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It is not a question of secrets. It is just a maturity of people. Anyone who has truly worked in a professional environment that requires some discretion and or secrecy will always be vague when providing info on resumes. If anyone has worked for defence contractors like LM, BAE, know that people are very careful in how they express the projects they have worked on. That is all I am saying. Ask me what I have worked on in my career, and I will always be careful and judge my words based upon who I am talking with.
Not sure what you're on about. 10 seconds of google got me all of these "careful descriptions" that are many folds more descriptive than the poor Azm person:
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M.AsfandYar

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It is not a question of secrets. It is just a maturity of people. Anyone who has truly worked in a professional environment that requires some discretion and or secrecy will always be vague when providing info on resumes. If anyone has worked for defence contractors like LM, BAE, know that people are very careful in how they express the projects they have worked on. That is all I am saying. Ask me what I have worked on in my career, and I will always be careful and judge my words based upon who I am talking with.
Man Calm down, they take fresh grads from universities like NUST, IST,UET GIKI and others, and give them basic work, after a few weeks if they are worth something, they keep them rest they send on their way. Looking at the dates he worked there, i would guess he is out and if he was from IST he wouldve been from Batch 13 . I doubt he wouldve have seen anything worth anything in that time. Usually people from UET are the first ones out. The ones kept are e only for year or two or so we heard from seniors.
 

akramishaqkhan

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Not sure what you're on about. 10 seconds of google got me all of these "careful descriptions" that are many folds more descriptive than the poor Azm person:
View attachment 716371 View attachment 716372 View attachment 716373 View attachment 716374
Other than one and two - people avoid naming projects and talk in general horizontal tech stacks. Also I am certain for those putting down exactly the name of the project or system they are working on, would not be looked at agreeably by LM. If people feel comfortable so be it - let me tell you, if I was an adversary and this project was of interest, I would direct my cyber skills towards this person, especially if he was still working for a project that was of interest. I just think it is better to be vague in publicly exposed/available settings.
 

Indos

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Other than one and two - people avoid naming projects and talk in general horizontal tech stacks. Also I am certain for those putting down exactly the name of the project or system they are working on, would not be looked at agreeably by LM. If people feel comfortable so be it - let me tell you, if I was an adversary and this project was of interest, I would direct my cyber skills towards this person, especially if he was still working for a project that was of interest. I just think it is better to be vague in publicly exposed/available settings.
It is not easy to hack people computer, all the works with this kind of project should only be done under computers inside the office and no one can bring flash disk into the office. It is what is happening in KFX/IFX program.
 

JamD

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Other than one and two - people avoid naming projects and talk in general horizontal tech stacks.
I literally googled FCS Lockheed Martin Linkedin and posted 4 profiles from the first page. Clearly, more than one and two.

Also I am certain for those putting down exactly the name of the project or system they are working on, would not be looked at agreeably by LM.
This is conjecture. LM, Boeing, Raytheon are private companies that have employees that can and do switch jobs. They need CVs and Linkedin profiles and these companies understand that. I know several several people like this personally.

This is unlike what you are expecting them to do, which is common in SPD - have a blank CV that says "worked in MoD for 20 years" or something because working in SPD is a lifelong career sacrifice and you are likely never going to work anywhere else (they don't let you go, and if they do you have no work experience you can talk about). I'm sure you can imagine how many talented people are scared away by this career blackhole. If AvRID is daring to do something differently it is my opinion that this is actually pretty good and will attract much better talent than SPD ever could.

If people feel comfortable so be it - let me tell you, if I was an adversary and this project was of interest, I would direct my cyber skills towards this person, especially if he was still working for a project that was of interest. I just think it is better to be vague in publicly exposed/available settings.
Let's just say I know a thing or two about FCS and AvRID and you will learn literally nothing by doing what you are suggesting.

I believe we have both made our points sufficiently well and any reader can make up their own mind. Thank you for the discussion.
 

Titanium100

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It is not easy to hack people computer, all the works with this kind of project should only be done under computers inside the office and no one can bring flash disk into the office. It is what is happening in KFX/IFX program.
For a better security everything is done off-line no internet access needed or computer used to fill things down except using software's to assist you in calculating certain things
 

akramishaqkhan

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I literally googled FCS Lockheed Martin Linkedin and posted 4 profiles from the first page. Clearly, more than one and two.


This is conjecture. LM, Boeing, Raytheon are private companies that have employees that can and do switch jobs. They need CVs and Linkedin profiles and these companies understand that. I know several several people like this personally.

This is unlike what you are expecting them to do, which is common in SPD - have a blank CV that says "worked in MoD for 20 years" or something because working in SPD is a lifelong career sacrifice and you are likely never going to work anywhere else (they don't let you go, and if they do you have no work experience you can talk about). I'm sure you can imagine how many talented people are scared away by this career blackhole. If AvRID is daring to do something differently it is my opinion that this is actually pretty good and will attract much better talent than SPD ever could.


Let's just say I know a thing or two about FCS and AvRID and you will learn literally nothing by doing what you are suggesting.

I believe we have both made our points sufficiently well and any reader can make up their own mind. Thank you for the discussion.
Thank you for your detailed response, really appreciate you taking the time. Your argument is well put together. But we shall agree to disagree. As a practitioner in a related field, you'll be surprised how essential this OSINT/public data is for attack vector development. And lastly LM/BAE and others have very sophisticated data management, physical and security controls, and other methods to secure - hence they can be a bit more open than normal. Security through obscurity is never an ideal model, but where as an org you are not technically sophisticated, then the only alternative left is to be obscure as best as possible I agree we'll leave to readers to decide which side they fall on. All the best.
 
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Irfan Baloch

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Thank you for your detailed response, really appreciate you taking the time. Your argument is well put together. But we shall agree to disagree. As a practitioner in a related field, you'll be surprised how essential this OSINT/public data is for attack vector development. And lastly LM/BAE and others have very sophisticated data management, physical and security controls, and other methods to secure - hence they can be a bit more open than normal. Security through obscurity is never an ideal model, but where as an org you are not technically sophisticated, then the only alternative left is to be obscure as best as possible I agree we'll leave to readers to decide which side they fall on. All the best.
lets move back to main discussion of subject Azm.
 

AZADPAKISTAN2009

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Well based on initial news , 3 years have passed out of the initially planned 10 year cycle for Project Azm
We are actually starting the 4th year.

With All said and done , we will have to see if the Images for Prototype would be released close to 70% Completion rate

So far every thing is tightly kept under the observing eyes from Space and Peeping Toms
However progress is being made no doubt

One thing Pakistan Airforce has always done is , they have always have over achieved their markers
The planning team must be certainly keeping in mind the current Indian Purchases of Rafale fighter Jets.

Performance wise we are entering a phase of Middle Weight Fighter Craft and Leaving the Light Weight Category which should immediately signal arrival of much more powerful powerplant

The X factor would have to be the Electronics package on the new platform it will overperform what we have on the JF17 Thunder
 

akramishaqkhan

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Well based on initial news , 3 years have passed out of the initially planned 10 year cycle for Project Azm
We are actually starting the 4th year.

With All said and done , we will have to see if the Images for Prototype would be released close to 70% Completion rate

So far every thing is tightly kept under the observing eyes from Space and Peeping Toms
However progress is being made no doubt

One thing Pakistan Airforce has always done is , they have always have over achieved their markers
The planning team must be certainly keeping in mind the current Indian Purchases of Rafale fighter Jets.

Performance wise we are entering a phase of Middle Weight Fighter Craft and Leaving the Light Weight Category which should immediately signal arrival of much more powerful powerplant

The X factor would have to be the Electronics package on the new platform it will overperform what we have on the JF17 Thunder
If there is one org I have some hope with it is the PAF. The rest are still operating in an archaic mode, where short term tactical gain takes precedence over longer term capacity/capability development. Having said that Public / Private associations are still very limited and much of the work is going into the internal mil structure. That is a shame and I wish they developed a stronger private commercial mil ecosystem and funded appropriately.
 

Hakikat ve Hikmet

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I see a good correlation bewtween TFX and Azm programs:
  • EW, avionics, radars, fuselage composites with embedded sensors, computational platforms, special pods etc. are at an advanced stage in development for TFX, which can be leveraged by Azm
  • As for the engine, although TFX and Azm are on different paths, I am pretty sure a semi-final decision on the foreign engine has already been made for both of them
  • TFX, which is being built in blocks format, ultimately will have indigenous engine, which Azm can incorporate too in its later blocks
  • As for the smart armaments, a good deal of these staffs are being developed for TFX, which might make inroads into Azm
  • As for the "wingman drones" being a part of the 5th/6th gen manned package, different Turkish programs are independently progressing to supplement TFX, which Azm can put its hands on
  • TFX's initial block might not possess all the 5th gen specs but good enough for Turkey's immediate neighborhood, which also seems to be a reality for Azm as far as Pak is concerned
 

Rana4pak

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I see a good correlation bewtween TFX and Azm programs:
  • EW, avionics, radars, fuselage composites with embedded sensors, computational platforms, special pods etc. are at an advanced stage in development for TFX, which can be leveraged by Azm
  • As for the engine, although TFX and Azm are on different paths, I am pretty sure a semi-final decision on the foreign engine has already been made for both of them
  • TFX, which is being built in blocks format, ultimately will have indigenous engine, which Azm can incorporate too in its later blocks
  • As for the smart armaments, a good deal of these staffs are being developed for TFX, which might make inroads into Azm
  • As for the "wingman drones" being a part of the 5th/6th gen manned package, different Turkish programs are independently progressing to supplement TFX, which Azm can put its hands on
  • TFX's initial block might not possess all the 5th gen specs but good enough for Turkey's immediate neighborhood, which also seems to be a reality for Azm as far as Pak is concerned
If it’s up to me I will offer nuclear weapons +missiles station in turkey in exchange of Turkish military base . In this way we can both kill all kufr plans
 

GriffinsRule

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@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @The Raven @The Eagle @HRK @ghazi52 @JamD @CriticalThought @Hodor@SQ8 @mingle


Some new details on Project AZM as well as Block III in the new article on PAC Kamra (posted above). It summarizes what they are working on etc., and gives an insight into how they are thinking about emerging technologies and whether to produce them inhouse or not.

The gist of the information is that the project is still in the preliminary design phase (we already know from the prior statements by the ACM that this phase will have multiple tiers within itself). Periodically, through each phase they will review the cost-effectiveness (and Im guessing also PAC's ability) of what all the new gizmos and capabilities they want to add in the 5th gen aircraft and decide whether to exclude some or not.

What I am really surprised about is the ambitious timeline. 2 years through each of the new phase and the prototype to fly in 2028. Although the good chairman does caveat it by saying that the jet could change going through each design phase and the date might (certainly will) alter. They are also engaging with multiple international partners to see what they can offer PAC (which is really good news to me).

On a separate note, he also discloses the KLJ-7A as the AESA radar selected for Block IIIs and that PAC is working on a helmet-mounted display in partnership with China and other Pakistani companies. Lots of nice little details to keep the excitement going.

Edit: Also very interesting that PAC will also be overhauling foreign airliners at Karachi and Islamabad airports. That excess capacity will be put to use earning forex.
 
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HRK

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Some new details on Project AZM as well as Block III in the new article on PAC Kamra (posted above). It summarizes what they are working on etc., and gives an insight into how they are thinking about emerging technologies and whether to produce them inhouse or not.

The gist of the information is that the project is still in the preliminary design phase (we already know from the prior statements by the ACM that this phase will have multiple tiers within itself). Periodically, through each phase they will review the cost-effectiveness (and Im guessing also PAC's ability) of what all the new gizmos and capabilities they want to add in the 5th gen aircraft and decide whether to exclude some or not.

What I am really surprised about is the ambitious timeline. 2 years through each of the new phase and the prototype to fly in 2028. Although the good chairman does caveat it by saying that the jet could change going through each design phase and the date might (certainly will) alter. They are also engaging with multiple international partners to see what they can offer PAC (which is really good news to me).

On a separate note, he also discloses the KLJ-7A as the AESA radar selected for Block IIIs and that PAC is working on a helmet-mounted display in partnership with China and other Pakistani companies. Lots of nice little details to keep the excitement going.

Edit: Also very interesting that PAC will also be overhauling foreign airliners at Karachi and Islamabad airports. That excess capacity will be put to use earning forex.
yaap very informative article ....

As far as open source info about Azm is available we know that it was officially announced in 2015 so starting from 2015 till 2028 it is the timeline of 13-14 years which seems normal and as per MODP 2017-2018 annual report one cycle of preliminary design study had already completed before the publication of the said report which mean before the June-2018, so we could seriously expect some thing in 2030-2032 even if project face some delay
 

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