Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[The Raven]

The core design of Azm will all depend on the engine selected. Pakistan doesn't have the luxury of an established industrial base to design and manufacture an engine specifically for Azm, in contrast to say the historical approach of the US or Russia who layed down the specs of their fighter development programmes and left it to engines designers to develop appropriate powerplants. The Chinese have had to build a similar capability over a number of decades. For countries like Turkey and Pakistan, the design specs of their fighter programmes are essentially tied to whatever powerplant they can secure. The same approach was used for JF-17, it was essentially designed around a single Klimov RD-33/93 series of engine using the Mig project 33 as a basis. For project Azm, the first decision to be taken before any detailed design work is done will be the engine...which clearly already has been decided upon.

 

[Deino]

It will be ready by 2025 after testing phase. KFX will be ready one year before TFX. KFX will have it's fight flight in 2022 while TFX 2023 but I am more excited about Azm it sounds more then just a 5th generation or stealth it sounds more then that. I read about it and instantly thought for myself this is not a 5th generation the build-in it comes with is creative and innovating idea when it is completed it would be a fine fighter jet.

I'm currently watching closely the British tempest fighter jet it is in production. They are probably gonna use Rolls royce or partner with them. It will be ready by 2035

That's ridiculous ... the KFX is already close to a finished prototype and roll-out, the TFX hasn't even begun prototype construction, Korea has at least some experience in designing, manufacturing and testing an own fighter, Turkey has not and still you persist to think TAI can hold its schedule?

If I were Pakistan and the PAF I would give this Turkish option very tough deadlines to prove they can develop in time and on budget and if not, I would cancel this idea. Better to go again the Chinese way.

 

[Titanium100]

That's ridiculous ... the KFX is already close to a finished prototype and roll-out, the TFX hasn't even begun prototype construction, Korea has at least some experience in designing, manufacturing and testing an own fighter, Turkey has not and still you persist to think TAI can hold its schedule?

If I were Pakistan and the PAF I would give this Turkish option very tough deadlines to prove they can develop in time and on budget and if not, I would cancel this idea. Better to go again the Chinese way.

Turkey has experience in designing engines and manufacturing for decades of it is own. They have even pushed the deadline forward which means they are confident and it is finalized few months post KFX.

Turkey's defense industry is alot more vast then most realize in many sectors and sub divisions and nothing is rolled-out except it being top quality from drones, helicopters, subs, tanks, ships etc etc.

Pakistan will not only meet the deadline but it will get bumped forward as TFX engineers could provide assistance with the engine but even without that Pakistan can get it done they build nuclear weapons under a bunker fixing the algorithm for a engine with so much assistance from outside can't be hard they will even have difficulty chosing who China, Turkey, South Korea, Indonesia

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

That's ridiculous ... the KFX is already close to a finished prototype and roll-out, the TFX hasn't even begun prototype construction, Korea has at least some experience in designing, manufacturing and testing an own fighter, Turkey has not and still you persist to think TAI can hold its schedule?

If I were Pakistan and the PAF I would give this Turkish option very tough deadlines to prove they can develop in time and on budget and if not, I would cancel this idea. Better to go again the Chinese way.

When the production of the TFX prototype starts in December, the production of a 5th generation aircraft will begin, the weapon station like the KFX will not be outside. TAI hasn't designed but produced supersonic aircraft before, that's why the UAE exists. England is not stingy like the American fools.

Even if the TFX was produced in the 2030s, it will be produced in limited numbers, at best, you can produce 15 units per year, no one outside of America has extraordinary speeds and I do not think it is entered on the program at any time. Turkey is already not an option for Pakistan will go with centipede and this is the most logical

 

[Ali_Baba]

The JF17 programme has reached full maturity and from now on, there will be only manufacturing and upgrades of planes and integration of new weapons to the platform. The design for Block III has been locked down, and there has not been any word of subsequent blocks.

No PAF official has mentioned or spoken about a Block IV for the JF17. The offial PAF narrative stops at Block III. PAF is moving onto Azm, what ever that means and it will be the core focus of their resources for the next decade.

 

[JohnWick]

Grey Ghost Yf-23

 

[HaMoTZeMaS]

Hi,

No---you cannot---. Pakistani youth have no solid foundations---no work ethics---.

Descipline wise we are absolutely lagging by ages
This can be done.
Forexample it took me some 3 to 4 years to get myself desciplined in a progressive routine..

 

[IceCold]

Bhai.
When have you known a sheep to put on a Leopard's skin and actually chqnge into a Leopard. The problem people are not understanding is PAF designed the JFTas a light weight fighter. Within that limit whatever developments are possible will be done. Beyond that if you want to change it into a medium weight fighter it will require the dezign to be reworked with a bigger engine which would in fact become another fighter. PAFneither have the money or the luxury of time on its hands to indulge in such frivolity. If you want a-medium weight fighter why not get more 16s or J10s. Plus-2hy wouldChina help you in creating a competition for their own product and what will it say
about the JFTto its prospective buyers?
A

There was a time araz sb when JF17 was in fact pitched as a medium weight fighter. It is only recently (few years) when the weight category was classified as light even though when wings have been strengthen to carry heavier loads and a new chinese power plant with more dry thrust compared to RD93.

 

[Marker]

The JF17 programme has reached full maturity and from now on, there will be only manufacturing and upgrades of planes and integration of new weapons to the platform. The design for Block III has been locked down, and there has not been any word of subsequent blocks.

No PAF official has mentioned or spoken about a Block IV for the JF17. The offial PAF narrative stops at Block III. PAF is moving onto Azm, what ever that means and it will be the core focus of their resources for the next decade.

There are three possibilities regarding future of JF-17 project.
1. Semi-stealth design revision with single RD-93MA engine.
2. Scaled up semi-stealth design revision with two RD-93MA engines.
3. Only avionics and weapons upgradations.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

You are comparing US with Pakistan. That alone is a fallacy. PAC does not have thecapacigy or the money to run 2 simultaneous projects requiring extensive inputs. Not even Lockmart does that SIMULTANEOUSLY. They had cooperation with Grumen on the 35s and then came back to 16s/70/72. You are seriously underwztimating the work involved. To give you an example putting AESAinto JFT required nearly a year's worth of work.Talk about revamping the/whole design. It could set the project back by 5-10 years soit is a-nonviable thought process.
A

Thank you. My only issue with China would be their inaistence on selling us rather than help us make-our-own. Theyhave not yet demonstrated a fifth generation engine although they may not be far behind.
A

İ am not asking for a simultaneous project azeez birather. My post explicitly says AFTER we are done with Azm we can look to make a jet that is a futuristic work horse of mmrca category for that tim period(2040s-2050s) that might use JF17 as a template. And has stealth(stealth as we know it might even become outdated) or semi stealth features.

You'd be right if PAC is an actual business, but it isn't.

PAC is a living armory. It's job is to churn out what the PAF wants at a given point of time, and if not, maintain whatever the PAF already has. It's basically a government office, albeit one that can produce fighter aircraft. If it's future is rolling out 6-12 NGFAs a year, then that's where it'll go.

It's the same story for HIT, KSEW, POF, and most others.

Makes me sad cuz U.S has used the sales of their old aircraft to keep the assembly lines running and use the sales funds to finance new programs.

 

[Titanium100]

İ am not asking for a simultaneous project azeez birather. My post explicitly says AFTER we are done with Azm we can look to make a jet that is a futuristic work horse of mmrca category for that tim period(2040s-2050s) that might use JF17 as a template. And has stealth(stealth as we know it might even become outdated) or semi stealth features.

Makes me sad cuz U.S has used the sales of their old aircraft to keep the assembly lines running and use the sales funds to finance new programs.

JF-17 still has market

 

[Goenitz]

JF-17 still has market

every mig 21 operating nation can replace it with JF-17, if its not an enemy..

 

[Indos]

When the production of the TFX prototype starts in December, the production of a 5th generation aircraft will begin, the weapon station like the KFX will not be outside. TAI hasn't designed but produced supersonic aircraft before, that's why the UAE exists. England is not stingy like the American fools.

Even if the TFX was produced in the 2030s, it will be produced in limited numbers, at best, you can produce 15 units per year, no one outside of America has extraordinary speeds and I do not think it is entered on the program at any time. Turkey is already not an option for Pakistan will go with centipede and this is the most logical

The problem with TFX is that they havent had any deal with Prat&Witney (and US gov) to use F 110 engine for TFX. There is optimism around Turkish leadership that after the test of TFX is completed while using F110 engine (previously intended for F16 spares), Turkey will have indigenous engine that will mimic F110 diameter, length, and weight so that they will fit into the TFX fuselage. I would say you guys are betting on the indigenous engine. I hope TFX fate is not similar with Altay fate.

I have suggested quite long time in here that TFX should use foreign engine like Russian or British one to avoid Altay fate while effort for indigenous engine development should still be continued but it is better for missile and UCAV program first.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

JF-17 still has market

Yeah but what if PAC/PAF wants to shut down JF17 line for Azm even when their is demand for JF17. I would not be surprised if such a stupid decision is made by some high and mighty general or bureaucrat, it's Pakistan after all.

 

[Syed1.]

Why are we assuming that PAC cannot set up another production line just for Azm around the 2030 mark while keeping the JF-17 production going.


I suspect we won't be producing Azm in large quantities, something along the lines of 3-5 units a year.


Interesting discussion regarding the engine, the communication from PAF has been that layers of conceptual design have been completed which perhaps means an engine has been selected. I won't be surprised if the Azm uses two RD93 engines because PAF is comfortable with it and we have capabilities to repair/overhaul.

Basing the Azm design around Chinese or Turkish engines is a recipe for a failed project. That is because those engines don't exist atm or their performance is still being evaluated. This leaves us with fostering a relationship with the Russians to get unhindered supply of engines or a license build agreement.