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AbsoluteEngineer

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@CriticalThought has raised a good point, and based on what I understood, and what I had been thinking over this weekend. I came up with following chart.

What I understood @CriticalThought point to be questions / objectives in "1" and "2", in order to achieve those goals in these steps, then we need to specify aircraft performance and low-observability requirements (based upon current and projected SAM, AWACS, Ground Detection capabilities, etc) in "3a" and "3b". These requirements then feed into what the tactical requirements, and how the impact of aircraft design might look like.


abc.png


I will follow up with a detailed post regarding what/when/why/how/which on the engine discussion, but crux of the matter is that aircraft need highly reliable engine(s) with adequate thrust capability:

Reliable --> Matellurgy plays crucial role
Adequate Thrust Capability --> Materllurgy plays crucial role

I'll keep drafting that post, but let's get thoughts going on the following flow-chart.

@Armchair @JamD
 

Sinnerman108

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Regarding engines, please understand the following two concepts.

Designing, researching, producing engines is done by companies who can distribute the
cost of the aforementioned exercise over large enough revenue pipelines.

For a national asset like PAF, abbove doesn't hold true, thus it is illogical for anyone to
suggest that PAF ever get into designing and producing jet engines.

You may also want to understand that the jet engine design is used not just to power aircraft,
same technology and largely the same production is used in power generation industry as well.
Thus another revenue line for the companies that do this work.

Lastly, regarding the twin engine paradigm. Please understand that if one engine has X amount
of maintenance effort, two engines will have more than 2X always.
The decision to have two engines is not always made on the basis of thrust requirements.
Some times it is more economically feasible to allow an engine run below it's maximum
output and put another one to compensate thrust.This decreases the amount of stress on
each engine, and allows higher availability of the aircraft.

Think of it as batteries arranged in Parallel rather than series always.
 

Armchair

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Well, I would say that manned mission to space was done only by superpowers until a small innovative company thought otherwise. And Pakistan, in the plan I've outlined won't be building a new engine. It will be basically working in parallel with the Chinese who need a similar class of engine for their J-31. Basically build on the work they are doing and synergize with their efforts.
 

Sinnerman108

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Another way to look at it is Elon Musk could see the wastage of time and effort in NASA,
he produced the same product minus the wastage.

However he will see the profits, because the market ( revenue stream ) exists for him
and he can legally undertake commercial projects.



Well, I would say that manned mission to space was done only by superpowers until a small innovative company thought otherwise. And Pakistan, in the plan I've outlined won't be building a new engine. It will be basically working in parallel with the Chinese who need a similar class of engine for their J-31. Basically build on the work they are doing and synergize with their efforts.
 

CriticalThought

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@CriticalThought has raised a good point, and based on what I understood, and what I had been thinking over this weekend. I came up with following chart.

What I understood @CriticalThought point to be questions / objectives in "1" and "2", in order to achieve those goals in these steps, then we need to specify aircraft performance and low-observability requirements (based upon current and projected SAM, AWACS, Ground Detection capabilities, etc) in "3a" and "3b". These requirements then feed into what the tactical requirements, and how the impact of aircraft design might look like.


View attachment 637590

I will follow up with a detailed post regarding what/when/why/how/which on the engine discussion, but crux of the matter is that aircraft need highly reliable engine(s) with adequate thrust capability:

Reliable --> Matellurgy plays crucial role
Adequate Thrust Capability --> Materllurgy plays crucial role

I'll keep drafting that post, but let's get thoughts going on the following flow-chart.

@Armchair @JamD
There needs to be a separate thread focusing on 1 and 2 in your diagram: doctrine and how that leads to requirements. But before these two, the problem itself needs to be defined. Geo-strategy/will is a small part of the larger picture. What are the threats PAF is facing today, in 5 years time, 15 years, 30 years, and 50 years. Go into all dimensions of the threats, EM, A2A, G2A, etc. Then formulate the doctrine and see how the doctrine leads to stealth requirements. This entire piece is missing from the thought processes of most users on this forum.

I apologize, perhaps I should have clarified. the engines (2 of them) won't allow for a true air superiority 5 gen fighter. Or so I would estimate.

i.e. with RD-33 / RD-93 series
Define 'true air superiority'. If a well-equipped F-16 manages to get close to an F-35, it is game over for the F-35. See how I qualified with 'well-equipped'? The reality is, there is no single definition of 'true air superiority'. Twin engines, if used wisely with a well thought airframe, avionics/EW package, and weapons, offer a different take on air superiority.
 

araz

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The answer lies in stop relying on international education. Science is the same everywhere in the universe, and it is waiting to be discovered. Much of what has been discovered is already available in the form of research papers. And the real truth of the matter is that the mind boggling success of countries like China stands in large part on wholesale buying out of technology, manpower, and where possible, espionage.

In a previous employment, the mentor assigned to me was a graduate from Russia's most premier institute of theoretical physics. He tells me back in the 1950s Britain hired Russian scientists on salaries of 30000K pounds per month for secret research projects. Yes, that is Thirty Thousand pounds per month in the 1950s. He says, as late as a couple of years ago, precincts in China hired Russian scientists on similarly mind boggling salaries so they could continue to get funding from the central government. And my Chinese friends have told me frankly that many of the technologies we see in China came about because entire companies were bought out.

Our problem is slavish mentality. We feel the need for someone else to teach us. The Prime Minister of a nuclear armed country goes around the world, begging people to teach us how to govern. What a joke! In seventy years we could not develop the vision to develop Gawadar through our own initiative. Like a damsel in distress, we need some shining knight to come to our rescue. Well, the fact is, there are no shining knights. By submitting yourself to the pedagogy of others, you enslave yourself. No one is going to teach you so much that you became their masters. You are on your own, and Allah has already given you all you need to excel. All you need to do is end the mental slavery.
I think and I strongly believe if we negotiated we could get access to the USA and UK libraries resources online. This would allow our boys and girls to access the latest information. We have taken on teachers from outside and perhaps can employ more graduates from abroad to teach our boys. Lastly even Expats gone out can be called back to lecture from time to time to avail their skillsets. We can also do online lectures and pay them for it. There are ways in which we can utilize a lot of resources for some paymemt and meep the knowledge skills of our boys and girls intact.
A
 

CriticalThought

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I think and I strongly believe if we negotiated we could get access to the USA and UK libraries resources online. This would allow our boys and girls to access the latest information. We have taken on teachers from outside and perhaps can employ more graduates from abroad to teach our boys. Lastly even Expats gone out can be called back to lecture from time to time to avail their skillsets. We can also do online lectures and pay them for it. There are ways in which we can utilize a lot of resources for some paymemt and meep the knowledge skills of our boys and girls intact.
A
Research papers and libraries are there for everyone to use. But we should NOT expect that someone will teach us how to build a world leading fifth gen plane. Why would they? If we can create such technologies ourselves, we would not be reliant on others. The foreign policy of technologically advanced nations is a game of making the world their own slave. We need leadership that realizes it, and we need people who are willing to rise up to the challenge of discovering new knowledge quickly so we can find our own place amongst the technologically advanced nations of the world.
 

Goenitz

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I think and I strongly believe if we negotiated we could get access to the USA and UK libraries resources online. This would allow our boys and girls to access the latest information. We have taken on teachers from outside and perhaps can employ more graduates from abroad to teach our boys. Lastly even Expats gone out can be called back to lecture from time to time to avail their skillsets. We can also do online lectures and pay them for it. There are ways in which we can utilize a lot of resources for some paymemt and meep the knowledge skills of our boys and girls intact.
A
Good views but not practical as @CriticalThought stated (welcome back, you got banned?)
The idea is fine that import some technical people to teach you stuff or send our members to learn in foreign labs but then there are too many fronts to cover. It is not like sending a single soul like Jahangir Khan to be trained in UK squash courts and then he became a champion.

I emphasise again that we need a pool of scientists, engineers and workers to make a complex thing like a good car, engines or a jet. It is not easy that our mindset and training is not adequate. We are the people who prefer 'jugard 'over innovation, excuses/flattery over meeting deadlines, and quantity over quality. That mindset can only be changed working in industry where quality, efficiency, professionalism, etc are valued.
Among many issues we discussed, there was a striking element of Pakistanis being undisciplined and unsystematic in their approach and were always trying to find shortcuts for almost everything.
So to create a large bank of such people we need time and only be created if we send our FSc, graduate to pursue higher education, research work and job in EU countries. It will take time but in the end we will have an ENVIRONMENT of professional workers. Otherwise garbage in and garbage out.

Ever wonder why we have A+ achiever records in O and A levels but no good research work, out of universities? It is because our university fail to capitalise the students towards research. As we lack researchers and good labs. It just need one paper plus PhD to become an assistant professor in Pak but in UK that qualification lands you to be an asst Lecturer. A lot of research work or industry experience can only promote you above lecturer in UK otherwise you are expelled or not promoted.
 
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