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Possibility of F-35 for Pakistan Air Force

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Goritoes

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Now I know from the title, many of PDFians will be getting ready for trolling me or this thread, You guys almost typed your cheeky one-liners and Indians already bring their old argument of " Where is the money "? Buts let's discuss this notion for what it is worth. I will propose a couple of scenarios where it might be possible for the Pakistan Air force to get F-35's from the USA, So hear me out and also without trolling discuss the possibility by providing realistic approaches for this endeavor.

Scenario 1) As we know that US seems to be trying to pack its stuff from Afghanistan and leave, as much as I support the idea of bringing US troops home, something is not adding up for me, but in a hypothetical scenario what if (God Forbid) another massive Terror Attack hit America and its connection goes back to Pak-Afghan border regions? The US will definitely stay and then it will again come to if Pakistan will corporate or not (With us or against us) notion can come up again, but this time Pakistan's situation won't be as dire as it was back in 2001, Chinese Influence was minimum at that time along with their economical assistance, Russia was hesitant in building any relationship with Pakistan, Turkey was there but not as influential as they are today, so this time maybe US might use a different approach to Pakistan decision-makers (GHQ), and offer CSF, Financial and Military Aid, releasing all Military hardware which was held from Pakistan within a span of 1-3 years, and if this war sees the intensity and US keep relying on Pakistan to provide bases, Air space and route for US supplies then along the way (by end of this decade) maybe US will offer F-35's (18 units) similar to F-16's block 52's a sqd to PAF.

Scenario 2) America always used leverage on countries to do their bidding, there is no secret it that, they did this with every country except Israel, now in past several years the relationship between US-PAK has gone from bad to worse, and trust is as low as between Trump and Melania, with CPEC becoming Operational and Chinese replacing Americans in Pakistan from Financial Aid to Military hardware, the US think tanks might see this as another important ally going into Chinese camp, they might try to butter Pakistan in future because their Stick policy has not been that fruitful and it pushes Pakistan way to deeper in Chinese Camp. Specifically in Military hardware among many development and success of JF-17 stand out taller than any other procurement by Pakistan from China, and now as JF-17 block 3 ready to roll out with AESA and other modern goodies it is a matter of pride for Pakistan but concern for West especially America, not because JF carries some Alien technology but the Independency Pakistan enjoys with their own fighter, no sanctions can hurt this program, no spare parts issues, no weapon integration and definitely no Kill Switches (only for @SQ8 :disagree:) All that experience, going into Project Azm which is the end game for PAF, developing a 5th Generation fighter, now when PAF chief told us that his vision is for PAF is to have 5th generation Air force by 2040, the actual catch here is that the independency which PAF is looking forward to, having 5th Generation fighter is not an issue after 2030, but building it at home through a sanction free supply chain is massive, which means Pakistan is taking away that one thing US always enjoy over weaker and financially starve nations like Pakistan, Leverage. So keeping PAF going from AZM, not because once again that AZM will bring some Alien tech to the table but bar Pakistan from getting fully independent over its Future Generation Fighter program they might bring an offer to the table which top brass at PAF won't be able to refuse, something like 1-2 Sqs of F-35 in a similar way they provide F-16's with US teams station at PAF bases to keep Chinese away from getting a glimpse of the tech.

Scenario 3) Pakistan become financially stable, the economy picks up and exports increase along with Foreign reserves, CPEC attracts more countries to invest, security situation improve amid Afghan Peace, some sort of Peace deal with India is signed and a political/diplomatic approach to Kashmir is taken by both parties, hence the ties between US and Pakistan improve as after the Afghan withdrawal there is a chance that America stops seeing Pakistan through the lens of Afghanistan, but as a separate country with its own national interest, and as ties improve and Pakistani's pockets become healthier they can approach US with a proposal of a couple of Sqs of F-35's as Indians by mid-2030s will have their own plans in motion to transform their Air forces into a full 5th Generation Air force, leaving Pakistan behind will tilt the balance of Power in the region hence push Pakistan to test more Nukes and missile to keep that minimum deterrence against India.

Feel free to add any other scenario you seem fit, and Please avoid the typical arguments such as Pakistan is poor, etc, everyone knows that and the whole idea of this thread is to discuss some hypothetical scenario's not getting into some same old arguments.

Also, feel free to discuss the integration process such as building up infrastructure in PAC kamra to support F-35's, supply lines, weapon integrations, EW suites etc

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD @dbc @SQ8 @The Eagle @araz @Windjammer
 

gangsta_rap

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Even if we drop CPEC and go a for a full scale realignment in foreign policy into becoming a willing vassal of the U.S this won't materialize.

Also you missed out on the part on how there are no friends of Pakistan in congress at all regardless of who is in the oval office. India has more influence than what it needs in that regard.
 

Ahmet Pasha

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Even if we drop CPEC and go a for a full scale realignment in foreign policy into becoming a willing vassal of the U.S this won't materialize.

Also you missed out on the part on how there are no friends of Pakistan in congress at all regardless of who is in the oval office. India has more influence than what it needs in that regard.
The bottom line is we are muslims. Muslims who seek to live according to real Islam not some secularized form of Sufi İslam that is easy to digest for the gora.

No matter how much you look at the modern international affairs from a secular lens we are pretty much in a Clash of Civilization type scenario. Where any nation who diverges from the order established by White European civilization is painted as an enemy. Chinese model and Islam go against their "order" hence we are the enemy. Including China and Russia.
 

Signalian

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maybe US will offer F-35's (18 units) similar to F-16's block 52's a sqd to PAF.
Why won't USA start from offering F-16 Block 72+ or V-Upgrade instead of jumping to F-35 instantly ? Secondly, why wouldnt PAF prefer a variant of J-31 over F-35 instead of ditching CPEC and other Chinese involvements in Pakistan ?
 

Air Wolf

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Now I know from the title, many of PDFians will be getting ready for trolling me or this thread, You guys almost typed your cheeky one-liners and Indians already bring their old argument of " Where is the money "? Buts let's discuss this notion for what it is worth. I will propose a couple of scenarios where it might be possible for the Pakistan Air force to get F-35's from the USA, So hear me out and also without trolling discuss the possibility by providing realistic approaches for this endeavor.

Scenario 1) As we know that US seems to be trying to pack its stuff from Afghanistan and leave, as much as I support the idea of bringing US troops home, something is not adding up for me, but in a hypothetical scenario what if (God Forbid) another massive Terror Attack hit America and its connection goes back to Pak-Afghan border regions? The US will definitely stay and then it will again come to if Pakistan will corporate or not (With us or against us) notion can come up again, but this time Pakistan's situation won't be as dire as it was back in 2001, Chinese Influence was minimum at that time along with their economical assistance, Russia was hesitant in building any relationship with Pakistan, Turkey was there but not as influential as they are today, so this time maybe US might use a different approach to Pakistan decision-makers (GHQ), and offer CSF, Financial and Military Aid, releasing all Military hardware which was held from Pakistan within a span of 1-3 years, and if this war sees the intensity and US keep relying on Pakistan to provide bases, Air space and route for US supplies then along the way (by end of this decade) maybe US will offer F-35's (18 units) similar to F-16's block 52's a sqd to PAF.

Scenario 2) America always used leverage on countries to do their bidding, there is no secret it that, they did this with every country except Israel, now in past several years the relationship between US-PAK has gone from bad to worse, and trust is as low as between Trump and Melania, with CPEC becoming Operational and Chinese replacing Americans in Pakistan from Financial Aid to Military hardware, the US think tanks might see this as another important ally going into Chinese camp, they might try to butter Pakistan in future because their Stick policy has not been that fruitful and it pushes Pakistan way to deeper in Chinese Camp. Specifically in Military hardware among many development and success of JF-17 stand out taller than any other procurement by Pakistan from China, and now as JF-17 block 3 ready to roll out with AESA and other modern goodies it is a matter of pride for Pakistan but concern for West especially America, not because JF carries some Alien technology but the Independency Pakistan enjoys with their own fighter, no sanctions can hurt this program, no spare parts issues, no weapon integration and definitely no Kill Switches (only for @SQ8 :disagree:) All that experience, going into Project Azm which is the end game for PAF, developing a 5th Generation fighter, now when PAF chief told us that his vision is for PAF is to have 5th generation Air force by 2040, the actual catch here is that the independency which PAF is looking forward to, having 5th Generation fighter is not an issue after 2030, but building it at home through a sanction free supply chain is massive, which means Pakistan is taking away that one thing US always enjoy over weaker and financially starve nations like Pakistan, Leverage. So keeping PAF going from AZM, not because once again that AZM will bring some Alien tech to the table but bar Pakistan from getting fully independent over its Future Generation Fighter program they might bring an offer to the table which top brass at PAF won't be able to refuse, something like 1-2 Sqs of F-35 in a similar way they provide F-16's with US teams station at PAF bases to keep Chinese away from getting a glimpse of the tech.

Scenario 3) Pakistan become financially stable, the economy picks up and exports increase along with Foreign reserves, CPEC attracts more countries to invest, security situation improve amid Afghan Peace, some sort of Peace deal with India is signed and a political/diplomatic approach to Kashmir is taken by both parties, hence the ties between US and Pakistan improve as after the Afghan withdrawal there is a chance that America stops seeing Pakistan through the lens of Afghanistan, but as a separate country with its own national interest, and as ties improve and Pakistani's pockets become healthier they can approach US with a proposal of a couple of Sqs of F-35's as Indians by mid-2030s will have their own plans in motion to transform their Air forces into a full 5th Generation Air force, leaving Pakistan behind will tilt the balance of Power in the region hence push Pakistan to test more Nukes and missile to keep that minimum deterrence against India.

Feel free to add any other scenario you seem fit, and Please avoid the typical arguments such as Pakistan is poor, etc, everyone knows that and the whole idea of this thread is to discuss some hypothetical scenario's not getting into some same old arguments.

Also, feel free to discuss the integration process such as building up infrastructure in PAC kamra to support F-35's, supply lines, weapon integrations, EW suites etc

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD @dbc @SQ8 @The Eagle @araz @Windjammer
You are holding Pakistani "Top Brass" in too much high esteem. Past behavior tells us that they will be more than happy to oblige for a mere 1-2 squadrons of F-16 Block 72.
 

Goritoes

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Why won't USA start from offering F-16 Block 72+ or V-Upgrade instead of jumping to F-35 instantly ? Secondly, why wouldnt PAF prefer a variant of J-31 over F-35 instead of ditching CPEC and other Chinese involvements in Pakistan ?
With due respect, the case I am building for F-35 is for the future, somewhere in the mid-2030s, at that time even the F-16's V will be old and neighboring countries moving to 5th Gen one way or another, F-16's V/72's would either come in next couple of years or they won't at all, but in this particular thread i am exploring the option which is beyond 2030's timeline.
You are holding Pakistani "Top Brass" in too much high esteem. Past behavior tells us that they will be more than happy to oblige for a mere 1-2 squadrons of F-16 Block 72.
Yaar, Do you guys even read the thread before commenting on it? I am talking about procurement in the timeline of 2030's, F-16's future in PAF will be decided within this decade, but in 2030's PAF won't be looking for F-16's.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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There's no realistic route for US aircraft at this time.

The PAF's only real next-gen options are either (1) go with the Chinese J-35 or J-21 or (2) work with the Turks on the TFX. The bare simplest option is the Chinese, but we won't learn a single thing and we'll be stuck (for yet another generation) relying on others. The Turks, on the other hand, are higher-risk and higher-cost (at least if we want to get serious workshare), but much higher reward (e.g., the potential for multi-billion-dollar aircraft production work in Pakistan, a heavyweight stealthy fighter, etc).

We should pick one of those two options for a 2030-2035 timeframe and, in parallel, work on our very own indigenous fighter for 2040-2045. For the latter, we should invest in feeder industries (e.g., gas turbines, IC manufacturing, composites, advanced steel, etc) that will propel our exports and help us fund our country and domestic defence programs. Those feeder industries will lay the groundwork for our own fighter.
 

T-SaGe

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The short answer is that due to the Autonomic Logistics Information System and the coordination of the entire system tracked from a military base in the USA; the supply of the F-35 will pose major military information security & readiness and political dependence problems for the Pakistani air force. From the point of view of the USA,Senate will not easily approve the acquisition of this system by the country, which has such an intricate relationship with China in aviation, and it will expect huge concessions for this.

Seems technologically advanced but a step backwards in terms of operative independence. It may be a good option if you are a passive country in NATO or if fully parralel with US. IMHO, our focus should be on a truly independent future-horizon, not on massive advertising campaigns and the global paid network.

By the way, not to mention sustainability issues... Many US organizations have begun to consider, even offer developing a new and fully domestic aircraft from scratch as an option. AND additional F-15 orders are not in vain. As a last example within many many issiues, last month, the Netherlands stopped its F-35 flights, again. The problems do not run out. The main reason for this is about the project model and if necessary, we can discuss it in detail. Theanother most important consequence of this is the uncontrollability in costs. Just a simple example: the pilot helmet of F-35 is $ 1 million as alone. If this is broken, you are not authorized to access it. Moreover, before your pilot reports it, ALIS has already brought this problem to the coordination base in the USA.
 
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Signalian

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With due respect, the case I am building for F-35 is for the future, somewhere in the mid-2030s, at that time even the F-16's V will be old and neighboring countries moving to 5th Gen one way or another, F-16's V/72's would either come in next couple of years or they won't at all, but in this particular thread i am exploring the option which is beyond 2030's timeline.
You have to analyze how USA starts throwing out its offers. Earlier what started from A-10s, formed into F-16s. Later UAE acquired AESA equipped F-16s while PAF was given Block 52+ without SOWs. Its to be seen whether USA is comfortable in equipping (as well as releasing) PAF with technology that F-35 possesses that will keep getting upgrades with time. Even if you talk about mid-2030s, China would have caught up with USA regarding lots of tech goodies that PAF might be interested in. As of now, PAF is interested to integrate Chinese weaponry and avionics onto further blocks of JF-17 and maybe Turkish weaponry in future. I still find your argument weak regarding the Qs I asked.
I would also add that where would Project Azm (and collaboration with Turkey or China) stand in mid 2030s that PAF should opt for F-35 ?
 

El Sidd

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Now I know from the title, many of PDFians will be getting ready for trolling me or this thread, You guys almost typed your cheeky one-liners and Indians already bring their old argument of " Where is the money "? Buts let's discuss this notion for what it is worth. I will propose a couple of scenarios where it might be possible for the Pakistan Air force to get F-35's from the USA, So hear me out and also without trolling discuss the possibility by providing realistic approaches for this endeavor.

Scenario 1) As we know that US seems to be trying to pack its stuff from Afghanistan and leave, as much as I support the idea of bringing US troops home, something is not adding up for me, but in a hypothetical scenario what if (God Forbid) another massive Terror Attack hit America and its connection goes back to Pak-Afghan border regions? The US will definitely stay and then it will again come to if Pakistan will corporate or not (With us or against us) notion can come up again, but this time Pakistan's situation won't be as dire as it was back in 2001, Chinese Influence was minimum at that time along with their economical assistance, Russia was hesitant in building any relationship with Pakistan, Turkey was there but not as influential as they are today, so this time maybe US might use a different approach to Pakistan decision-makers (GHQ), and offer CSF, Financial and Military Aid, releasing all Military hardware which was held from Pakistan within a span of 1-3 years, and if this war sees the intensity and US keep relying on Pakistan to provide bases, Air space and route for US supplies then along the way (by end of this decade) maybe US will offer F-35's (18 units) similar to F-16's block 52's a sqd to PAF.

Scenario 2) America always used leverage on countries to do their bidding, there is no secret it that, they did this with every country except Israel, now in past several years the relationship between US-PAK has gone from bad to worse, and trust is as low as between Trump and Melania, with CPEC becoming Operational and Chinese replacing Americans in Pakistan from Financial Aid to Military hardware, the US think tanks might see this as another important ally going into Chinese camp, they might try to butter Pakistan in future because their Stick policy has not been that fruitful and it pushes Pakistan way to deeper in Chinese Camp. Specifically in Military hardware among many development and success of JF-17 stand out taller than any other procurement by Pakistan from China, and now as JF-17 block 3 ready to roll out with AESA and other modern goodies it is a matter of pride for Pakistan but concern for West especially America, not because JF carries some Alien technology but the Independency Pakistan enjoys with their own fighter, no sanctions can hurt this program, no spare parts issues, no weapon integration and definitely no Kill Switches (only for @SQ8 :disagree:) All that experience, going into Project Azm which is the end game for PAF, developing a 5th Generation fighter, now when PAF chief told us that his vision is for PAF is to have 5th generation Air force by 2040, the actual catch here is that the independency which PAF is looking forward to, having 5th Generation fighter is not an issue after 2030, but building it at home through a sanction free supply chain is massive, which means Pakistan is taking away that one thing US always enjoy over weaker and financially starve nations like Pakistan, Leverage. So keeping PAF going from AZM, not because once again that AZM will bring some Alien tech to the table but bar Pakistan from getting fully independent over its Future Generation Fighter program they might bring an offer to the table which top brass at PAF won't be able to refuse, something like 1-2 Sqs of F-35 in a similar way they provide F-16's with US teams station at PAF bases to keep Chinese away from getting a glimpse of the tech.

Scenario 3) Pakistan become financially stable, the economy picks up and exports increase along with Foreign reserves, CPEC attracts more countries to invest, security situation improve amid Afghan Peace, some sort of Peace deal with India is signed and a political/diplomatic approach to Kashmir is taken by both parties, hence the ties between US and Pakistan improve as after the Afghan withdrawal there is a chance that America stops seeing Pakistan through the lens of Afghanistan, but as a separate country with its own national interest, and as ties improve and Pakistani's pockets become healthier they can approach US with a proposal of a couple of Sqs of F-35's as Indians by mid-2030s will have their own plans in motion to transform their Air forces into a full 5th Generation Air force, leaving Pakistan behind will tilt the balance of Power in the region hence push Pakistan to test more Nukes and missile to keep that minimum deterrence against India.

Feel free to add any other scenario you seem fit, and Please avoid the typical arguments such as Pakistan is poor, etc, everyone knows that and the whole idea of this thread is to discuss some hypothetical scenario's not getting into some same old arguments.

Also, feel free to discuss the integration process such as building up infrastructure in PAC kamra to support F-35's, supply lines, weapon integrations, EW suites etc

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD @dbc @SQ8 @The Eagle @araz @Windjammer
You need F35 for TLP?
Another 500 page wet dream thread alert
He has a dream. No one stops from dreaming. But why does he dream of scenarios where only the most hyped tech in the world can save him?

I mean aren't Pakistanis and Indians suppose to kiss and make up after Maulana Sam's fatwa?
 
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graphican

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The first fact: America would not offer F-35 to Pakistan. We are not military allies and will not be one.

Secon fact: Even if offered, Pakistan will not get their next-gen fighter from USA for they being unreliable and untrustworthy.

Third fact: F-35 will compete with programs like J-31 and TFX which Pakistan is can join as a partner. Pakistan will not skip a join-venture to buy a highly restricted technology and develop a frustrating dependency.

Fourth fact: Any 5th gen platform will serve the country for some 4 decades. Looking into the future, we see China surpassing USA and producing better technology. Pakistan's future is much safer buying something from China than from USA.
 
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Goritoes

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You have to analyze how USA starts throwing out its offers. Earlier what started from A-10s, formed into F-16s. Later UAE acquired AESA equipped F-16s while PAF was given Block 52+ without SOWs. Its to be seen whether USA is comfortable in equipping (as well as releasing) PAF with technology that F-35 possesses that will keep getting upgrades with time. Even if you talk about mid-2030s, China would have caught up with USA regarding lots of tech goodies that PAF might be interested in. As of now, PAF is interested to integrate Chinese weaponry and avionics onto further blocks of JF-17 and maybe Turkish weaponry in future. I still find your argument weak regarding the Qs I asked.
I would also add that where would Project Azm (and collaboration with Turkey or China) stand in mid 2030s that PAF should opt for F-35 ?
So technically there is a possibility that if and its a big if that once the relationship between the two nations are back on track whether because of good will or some incident that bring them closer again, there is a chance where PAF gets a offer of base model of F-35's with possible options for upgrades like F-16's, the reason why we can not mix Pakistan with MErn countries is that they were sitting on Oil, they offer US unlimited access to their land, bases and oil to extract which earn them some fancy toys from US, also US need bases and their allies in ME throughout the 2000's when Arab spring was at its peak. Pakistan holds only one leverage and that is Afghanistan, and that too is going to fade soon if US commits to exit.

I don't want to get into argument about Where the Chinese will stand in mid-2030's they sure won't be where US will be, cause the Advancement of US is just to big for the Chinese to catch up to, they are yet to build a decent Engine for their 4+ and 5th Gen fighters that has enough to show the disparity between two nation. As for Project Azm, where it would stand depends on many factors which include economy, security, peace and stability in Pakistan, we are even in this 2020's struggling to pay for Top-Notch Chinese Project, and if things don't improve for good we won't be able to put any money on R&D's which is the backbone of making AZM, unless PAF just wants to buy J-31's off the shelf paint it and call its AZM. If AZM shows potential then there is a high chance US might approach Pakistan to put their F-35 as PAF 5th Gen fighter rather then going full AZM way which will remove the dependency of PAF from America, lets not forget that F-16's by most will fly in PAF by 2030's, and after that US lost their one last leverage on PAF and what I learn from Americans they like keeping leverage on their allies.
F-35 is comparable to like J-31
Nope, Not at all ...
The short answer is that due to the Autonomic Logistics Information System and the coordination of the entire system tracked from a military base in the USA; the supply of the F-35 will pose major military information security & readiness and political dependence problems for the Pakistani air force. From the point of view of the USA,Senate will not easily approve the acquisition of this system by the country, which has such an intricate relationship with China in aviation, and it will expect huge concessions for this.

Seems technologically advanced but a step backwards in terms of operative independence. It may be a good option if you are a passive country in NATO. IMHO, the focus should be on a truly independent-future horizon, not on massive advertising campaigns and the global paid network.

By the way, not to mention sustainability issues... Many US organizations have begun to consider, even offer developing a new and fully domestic aircraft from scratch as an option. AND F-15 additional orders are not in vain. As a last example within many many issiues, last month, the Netherlands stopped its F-35 flights, again. The problems do not run out. The main reason for this is about the project model and if necessary, we can discuss it in detail. Theanother most important consequence of this is the uncontrollability in costs. Just a simple example: the pilot helmet of F-35, alone is $ 1 million. If this is broken, you are not authorized to access it. Moreover, before your pilot reports it, ALIS has already brought this problem to the coordination base in the USA.
Military independency is indeed a blessing for Pakistan, but as i keep mentioning it is a hypothetical scenario, From the logistics and cost of integration point of view I agree that it will be a nightmare, but if Pakistan's economy allows it, and Geopolitics plays out I still believe there is a chance that by mid 2030's PAF might get an offer of 1-2 Sqs of F-35's.
 
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