What's new

Population Time Bomb: Can it be avoided?

313ghazi

ELITE MEMBER
Mar 14, 2017
11,471
44
24,364
Country
Pakistan
Location
United Kingdom
I knew what you meant but if the Pakistani government announced free contraceptive pills for women then there would be riots.

We still haven't eradicated polio, and polio health workers have been murdered because the mullahs say the polio vaccine is a Western conspiracy to make Muslims infertile.

Free contraceptive pills don't stand a chance.

Give people some credit. Very little but some. Contraceptives cost money and condoms affect the sensation of intercourse (somewhat).

The pill if free would let people enjoy thier marital relations as they are used to - without a new mouth to feed. Plenty of women with money already take it.

Who asks the mullah? Those without a woman.
 

Longhorn

SENIOR MEMBER
Feb 22, 2019
2,425
3
3,662
Country
Pakistan
Location
United Kingdom
Give people some credit. Very little but some. Contraceptives cost money and condoms affect the sensation of intercourse (somewhat).

The pill if free would let people enjoy thier marital relations as they are used to - without a new mouth to feed. Plenty of women with money already take it.

Who asks the mullah? Those without a woman.
I'm all for it but I don't think affordability is the whole story.
Edit @313ghazi.
I don't really want to keep pushing the point but I've had a quick Google for how much the contraceptive pill costs in Pakistan.
There are some more expensive ones but you can buy a months supply for as little as 28Rs, that must be less than a bottle of Pepsi. But the most telling fact was that with every price was the stipulation that a prescription is required to make a purchase. That is a massive stumbling block to universal contraception in a conservative / religious / judgemental society like Pakistan.
 
Last edited:

Longhorn

SENIOR MEMBER
Feb 22, 2019
2,425
3
3,662
Country
Pakistan
Location
United Kingdom
Give people some credit. Very little but some. Contraceptives cost money and condoms affect the sensation of intercourse (somewhat).

The pill if free would let people enjoy thier marital relations as they are used to - without a new mouth to feed. Plenty of women with money already take it.

Who asks the mullah? Those without a woman.
For contraception to become universally accepted and successful , the whole structure of society, education, religious thinking, has to change.
Pakistan is not there yet.
 

chinasun

FULL MEMBER
Feb 24, 2021
431
-19
591
Country
China
Location
United States
Use science and technology to improve crop yield and production efficiency. With the improvement of agricultural production efficiency, more and more people will go to the city. If they want to survive better in the city, they must learn knowledge. For parents, the cost of raising each child increases, and the fertility rate naturally falls.
With the increase of urban population, the birth rate has decreased in all countries.
 
Last edited:

hydrabadi_arab

FULL MEMBER
Jul 31, 2015
1,065
4
2,188
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
It is not too different from extremists in India saying Muslims reproduce more than Hindus for 'population jihad'.
You defeat your own argument. If population is an opportunity, use the influx of Afghanis to benefit other than use them to expose your inner racist insecure self. Look at the attached file representing the highest population growth rate per latest data. If you know anything about the world, you won't take a second to realize these countries are invariably among the poorest nations in the world. There is no literature or even circumstantial evidence to prove that countries as large as Pakistan can benefit from increasing population.
Its a sad irony that you'd proudly call yourself a citizen of "Islamic Republic of Pakistan", yet be a racist against brethren Muslims and consider them outsiders. You'd hate on KSA and UAE not offering citizenship to Pakistanis and other poorer Muslims, yet you'd happily champion the same sick approach in Pakistan.

Afghani migration isnt good for Pakistan. Good luck developing while terrorism is rampant and at worst they indulge in identity politics from PTM etc platform. Imagine the reaction of British if tomorrow Bradford want to become part of Pakistan.
 

jupiter2007

SENIOR MEMBER
Feb 19, 2007
5,159
-3
3,988
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
I'm all for it but I don't think affordability is the whole story.
Edit @313ghazi.
I don't really want to keep pushing the point but I've had a quick Google for how much the contraceptive pill costs in Pakistan.
There are some more expensive ones but you can buy a months supply for as little as 28Rs, that must be less than a bottle of Pepsi. But the most telling fact was that with every price was the stipulation that a prescription is required to make a purchase. That is a massive stumbling block to universal contraception in a conservative / religious / judgemental society like Pakistan.

I don’t know what world you are living in but it’s already being done in Punjab. Punjab government runs the clinics for this vary purpose but population is still growing. Just image if they don’t do that, our population will reach 300 in 15 years.
 
Last edited:

jupiter2007

SENIOR MEMBER
Feb 19, 2007
5,159
-3
3,988
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Afghani migration isnt good for Pakistan. Good luck developing while terrorism is rampant and at worst they indulge in identity politics from PTM etc platform. Imagine the reaction of British if tomorrow Bradford want to become part of Pakistan.

Russian prior to WW1 sent millions of Russians to central Asian states. You will still find them in those countries. Why could not we relocate our people for the betterment of our country to other provinces? Government could have resettlement IDPs to southern Punjab and Sindh but due to politics they have to go back to the same areas.
 

Longhorn

SENIOR MEMBER
Feb 22, 2019
2,425
3
3,662
Country
Pakistan
Location
United Kingdom
I don’t know what world you are living in but it’s already being done in Punjab. Punjab government runs the clinics for this vary purpose and population is still growing. Just image if they don’t do that, our population will reach 300 in 15 years.
The world I'm living is the one where boys are seen as social security and the race is on to produce as many boys as possible. I personally know families who have produced girl babies year after year in the hope that they will have a boy. 6 girls later and they produce a boy, what kind of a life do you think those children are going to have.
The world I live in is the world where a woman has no say in what age she marries at or how many children she is made to produce.
The world I live in is the world where a woman is controlled by her parents before marriage and her in-laws after her marriage.
The world I live in is where people are brought up being taught that birth control is a sin.
The world I live in is a world where quantity trumps quality because we still live in a mindset that is medieval.
Read my previous posts, I'm not saying that the government doesn't desire birth control, what I'm saying is that there are too many social, societal and religious barriers for women to access birth control and for it to be meaningful and effective, that is assuming she has broken these mental and psychological taboos to want birth control in the first place.
The government can try as hard as it wants but it will not succeed until the mindset and structure of society changes.
 

hydrabadi_arab

FULL MEMBER
Jul 31, 2015
1,065
4
2,188
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Russian prior to WW1 sent millions of Russians to central Asian states. You will still find them in those countries. Why could not we relocate our people for the betterment of our country to other provinces? Government could have resettlement IDPs to southern Punjab and Sindh but due to politics they have to go back to the same areas.

Yeah you dont make much sense. Afghans are not our people so? Comparing them with Russian settlement doesnt make sense.

Point is Afghan migration is real issue, especially in Balochistan and Sindh. Maybe not punjab because its already too big to absorb some more millions. Anyway what is done is done, with fence and Nadra cleaned up. It will be hard to get forged CNIC. So next step is to use more hands available for good. Like I said overpopulation is a myth.

Now Pakistan will even offer permanent residency to rich Afghans which is the way to go.
 

jedijedi

FULL MEMBER

New Recruit

Apr 3, 2019
60
2
135
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
none of the data can be trusted. most citizens themselves don't trust the census numbers released.

What are the reasons for not trusting the data, is it circumstantial evidence or is there any proof that the census is vastly off. NADRA's data has matured a lot over time. Also, there is no single data source in today's world for macro estimates like population. Multiple highly reliable state resources as well as independent third party sources are gathering data and there is no smoking gun to suggest that the state estimates are far off the reality. If anything, the data is way more accurate than in the past. This argument is more an excuse to close eyes and not see the population explosion than anything real.

Completely disagree. This question was raised by someone else in the past and I have given detail answer.

Care making the effort to share it, i'm sure you'll find it easier to locate that answer than anyone else.

Build high density housing and invest in vertical farming. I'm not really worried about population growth. The average fertility rate in Pakistan is 3.56 which is pretty good. Like Elon Musk said, we need to be more worried about population collapse than explosion.
What a misplaced argument. Elon's statement wasn't about fastest growing populations which happen to be among the poorest generally, it is about the drop of birth rates in the most developed nations. Let me share two pieces of info to let you make your own conclusion.

- Most developed nations have dropping population rates and some are on the verge of dropping below the population replacement rate (widely known fact).
- Fastest growing nations are generally the most underdeveloped.

Is Elon Musk, who earns well over 99% of his wealth from the developed nations siding with the poorer underdeveloped nations in their quest to reproduce their way out of poverty?
The guy has 7 kids with 4 different women, I didn't expect him to say anything else.

I agree. We need to develop coastal towns and cities.
I think People can be moved from different places to establish these towns and future cities.

View attachment 811337

Planning is the most important part of the management. We need to build suburbs and satellite cites with road/highway network and robust transportation system.

We need to hire European consultants for urban planning.
Best planned city with Parks, entertainment district, malls, museum district, sports city, IT city, commercial district, financial district, uptown, downtown, suburbs.

transportation system: Buses, monorail (downtown), metroRail (Intracity), bullettrain (interCity)

In urban planning everything has to be zoned properly, residential (houses, flats, high rise buildings), commercial, religious, industrial, etc.

No car older than year 2001 on the street (This could be implemented by city ordinance).
Cars registration (every 2 years), inspection and emissions testing (Should be managed by district).
Infrastructure setup for electric cars.

Security: City police, rapid reaction force/SWAT, robots, street cameras, drone for monitoring traffic and prevent crimes.

Proper system setup for Clean water, Gray water, black water, industrial waste water, proper rain water drainage system, water reservoirs with floating gardens, garbage pickup and processing plants, Turn garbage to energy.

Education: Top schools, college, technical/vocational colleges, universities.
Rainwater drainage system
Water treatment plants
Your argument sounds great but why make new cities with all these systems. Why not spend less by fixing current ones, educate people and we have a winner. No needless population explosion, better life for existing population and the nearest generation and more education of course automatically tends to lead to a lower population rate. A dropping population growth rate coupled with better management will make our existing cities much more livable.

Use science and technology to improve crop yield and production efficiency. With the improvement of agricultural production efficiency, more and more people will go to the city. If they want to survive better in the city, they must learn knowledge. For parents, the cost of raising each child increases, and the fertility rate naturally falls.
With the increase of urban population, the birth rate has decreased in all countries.
Well the national direction is hardly visible unfortunately. You cannot say "Pakistan is a nation fast educating its population" or "Pakistan is investing heavily into agricultural research". Nations change when nations unite and work towards a goal. You can see half the supposedly educated lot here still calling population explosion a non-issue.
It is a realistic possibility that the developed nations of the world will one of these decades make lab grown food much cheaper than conventional agriculture and leave the poorer farm economies in a bigger mess of dealing with uncontrollably large masses with no jobs anymore. We will inevitably be forced to reduce population then, but why do it now when we can hump like bunnies and reproduce like rats.

Afghani migration isnt good for Pakistan. Good luck developing while terrorism is rampant and at worst they indulge in identity politics from PTM etc platform. Imagine the reaction of British if tomorrow Bradford want to become part of Pakistan.
The guy who killed Governor Taseer wasn't an Afghan, Ajmal Qassab wasn't an Afghan. The right wing parties who have ground Pakistan to a halt multiple times while killing LEA and civilians aren't Afghans. You probably haven't talked to an educated Afghan in your life I guess, they can be among the most progressive, liberal and nice people to talk to. It's not Afghans you want to point out, its the poverty they've been living in that's the problem but nobody is ready to talk about that.

I don’t know what world you are living in but it’s already being done in Punjab. Punjab government runs the clinics for this vary purpose and population is still growing. Just image if they don’t do that, our population will reach 300 in 15 years.
Interesting, whatever measures are being taken, aren't enough apparently considering our population growth rate is the fastest in the region.




On a side note, the desire to spread genes for continuity is inherent in most humans, or life in general as part of evolutionary instinct. If you cannot contemplate not reproducing, it is perfectly understandable that you might not welcome the thought of population control.
However, The rapid development of humankind in the past century especially in developed nations has proven that when given enough of a life and purpose, humans can prefer pursuing their own happiness rather than relentlessly trying to spread their seed even though it means running this finite globe out of resources.
You are perfectly entitled to think we're different from the liberal ways of the most successful nations on the planet but evidence is closer to home. Well educated, financially stable urban class of Pakistan is creating less babies, generally able to spend more per kid as a result and giving them better futures.
 

jupiter2007

SENIOR MEMBER
Feb 19, 2007
5,159
-3
3,988
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Yeah you dont make much sense. Afghans are not our people so? Comparing them with Russian settlement doesnt make sense.

Point is Afghan migration is real issue, especially in Balochistan and Sindh. Maybe not punjab because its already too big to absorb some more millions. Anyway what is done is done, with fence and Nadra cleaned up. It will be hard to get forged CNIC. So next step is to use more hands available for good. Like I said overpopulation is a myth.

Now Pakistan will even offer permanent residency to rich Afghans which is the way to go.

I wasn’t talking about Afghani.

internally displaced persons (also known as "IDPs") are "persons or groups of persons who have been forced or obliged to flee or to leave their homes or places of habitual residence.
I was taking about people from FATA especially from south Waziristan.

Those people should have been resettled in other part of Pakistan. Situation in FATA and Balochistan hasn’t improved in last 10 years and we have given PTM an opportunity to do politics on rights of Pashtun.
 

jupiter2007

SENIOR MEMBER
Feb 19, 2007
5,159
-3
3,988
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
What are the reasons for not trusting the data, is it circumstantial evidence or is there any proof that the census is vastly off. NADRA's data has matured a lot over time. Also, there is no single data source in today's world for macro estimates like population. Multiple highly reliable state resources as well as independent third party sources are gathering data and there is no smoking gun to suggest that the state estimates are far off the reality. If anything, the data is way more accurate than in the past. This argument is more an excuse to close eyes and not see the population explosion than anything real.



Care making the effort to share it, i'm sure you'll find it easier to locate that answer than anyone else.


What a misplaced argument. Elon's statement wasn't about fastest growing populations which happen to be among the poorest generally, it is about the drop of birth rates in the most developed nations. Let me share two pieces of info to let you make your own conclusion.

- Most developed nations have dropping population rates and some are on the verge of dropping below the population replacement rate (widely known fact).
- Fastest growing nations are generally the most underdeveloped.

Is Elon Musk, who earns well over 99% of his wealth from the developed nations siding with the poorer underdeveloped nations in their quest to reproduce their way out of poverty?
The guy has 7 kids with 4 different women, I didn't expect him to say anything else.


Your argument sounds great but why make new cities with all these systems. Why not spend less by fixing current ones, educate people and we have a winner. No needless population explosion, better life for existing population and the nearest generation and more education of course automatically tends to lead to a lower population rate. A dropping population growth rate coupled with better management will make our existing cities much more livable.


Well the national direction is hardly visible unfortunately. You cannot say "Pakistan is a nation fast educating its population" or "Pakistan is investing heavily into agricultural research". Nations change when nations unite and work towards a goal. You can see half the supposedly educated lot here still calling population explosion a non-issue.
It is a realistic possibility that the developed nations of the world will one of these decades make lab grown food much cheaper than conventional agriculture and leave the poorer farm economies in a bigger mess of dealing with uncontrollably large masses with no jobs anymore. We will inevitably be forced to reduce population then, but why do it now when we can hump like bunnies and reproduce like rats.


The guy who killed Governor Taseer wasn't an Afghan, Ajmal Qassab wasn't an Afghan. The right wing parties who have ground Pakistan to a halt multiple times while killing LEA and civilians aren't Afghans. You probably haven't talked to an educated Afghan in your life I guess, they can be among the most progressive, liberal and nice people to talk to. It's not Afghans you want to point out, its the poverty they've been living in that's the problem but nobody is ready to talk about that.


Interesting, whatever measures are being taken, aren't enough apparently considering our population growth rate is the fastest in the region.




On a side note, the desire to spread genes for continuity is inherent in most humans, or life in general as part of evolutionary instinct. If you cannot contemplate not reproducing, it is perfectly understandable that you might not welcome the thought of population control.
However, The rapid development of humankind in the past century especially in developed nations has proven that when given enough of a life and purpose, humans can prefer pursuing their own happiness rather than relentlessly trying to spread their seed even though it means running this finite globe out of resources.
You are perfectly entitled to think we're different from the liberal ways of the most successful nations on the planet but evidence is closer to home. Well educated, financially stable urban class of Pakistan is creating less babies, generally able to spend more per kid as a result and giving them better futures.

I don’t have time to go over everything but just want to highlight few points.
I agree with you to spend money on our cities to improve infrastructure without corruption and for that we need competent and honest people in the government. During PMLN tenure whole Punjab province budget was spent on Lahore to make it Paris. Did it become Paris?
Government is willing to provide funds but due to 18 amendment and corrupt mafia only small portion of the money spent on development. Eventually things will become difficult and it will be harder to acquire loans.
IK has been asking Overseas Pakistani to invest money in Pakistan but only few have come forward. Most want some kind of guarantee from government.
Some investors have agreed to 10 billon dollars for the development of Bundle Islands? Why they don’t want to invest same in Karachi, Lahore or Islamabad? Why Bundle Island? Because it’s part of Karachi port which falls under Federal government.
If we want FDI, we need to come up with great concept/design that will attract investors. Concept of green or eco-friendly city will attract investment as long as government is willing to provide some kind of guarantee.
Our cities are getting over populated and we need well planned new cities with modern infrastructure.

As far as your concerned about population control, it can be done through education.
  1. Birth control (contraception)
    • This is already done in Punjab through government funded clinics. Same concept can be applied to all other provinces or Federally funded programs.
  2. Public awareness campaigns about family planning using all resources including print/TV/social media.
  3. Reducing infant mortality so that parents do not need to have many children to ensure at least some survive to adulthood.
  4. Moving to rural area to urban area. having more children is financially more beneficial (for farming families) in rural areas than in urban areas.
 

hydrabadi_arab

FULL MEMBER
Jul 31, 2015
1,065
4
2,188
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
I wasn’t talking about Afghani.

internally displaced persons (also known as "IDPs") are "persons or groups of persons who have been forced or obliged to flee or to leave their homes or places of habitual residence.
I was taking about people from FATA especially from south Waziristan.

Those people should have been resettled in other part of Pakistan. Situation in FATA and Balochistan hasn’t improved in last 10 years and we have given PTM an opportunity to do politics on rights of Pashtun.

Resettlement where? This isnt 1947 when population exchange toke place. Hell KP got rid of all its non-muslim population without hosting any muslim from India in return.
 

El Sidd

ELITE MEMBER
Apr 5, 2017
63,538
1
50,959
Country
Pakistan
Location
Germany
What are the reasons for not trusting the data, is it circumstantial evidence or is there any proof that the census is vastly off. NADRA's data has matured a lot over time. Also, there is no single data source in today's world for macro estimates like population. Multiple highly reliable state resources as well as independent third party sources are gathering data and there is no smoking gun to suggest that the state estimates are far off the reality. If anything, the data is way more accurate than in the past. This argument is more an excuse to close eyes and not see the population explosion than anything real.
The system is designed to leave out millions efficiently. We are talking about a section which does not make it to data.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 1, Members: 0, Guests: 1)


Top Bottom