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PM rejects criticism of dual nationals holding public office

FuturePAF

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Bro I understand what you mean. But for that we need a sens of being Pakistani too. And if we hear that we are second class Pakistanis only, be sure, maybe not us, but our children will forgot our country.
How will you treat your family if your family reject you ? This is the main point !

Why do we have so many traitor among us ? Is it in our DNA ? Or is it because the environment, the way we treat each others make traitors ? What makes the link between the individual and the national community ? Especially if you differentiate Pakistanis from Pakistanis ? Isn’t it the main point why we still are running right and left to find our National Identity and UNITY ? Isn’t it what we really lack in Pakistan ? And why we lack it still after 70 years of existence of Pakistan ?

Even if we get involved in our host country’s politics, if you are expelling the dual nationals from Pakistan’s politics, then you won’t help at all. You will close the doors of well educated and honest people bringing huge experiences from abroad just because they won’t feel being in their own country.

Jewish worked hard despite being harassed and even killed but they built a strong sense of being Sons of Israel. That’s why they are helping Israel since ages.
It’s in this way I’m advocating not to expel dual nationals from Pakistanis politics.





i understand your worries and they are valid.
But to mitigate them we have to build proper mécanismes to control every critical seats. A system of check and balance, an Intel service specifically tasked to keep a check on everyone of the high ranking sea

Again as I have already said, Pakistanis are lacking honesty, sense of patriotism etc and thus we are failing as a Nation, and are making traitors.

The real problem is not being or not being dual national. But the lack of accountability, the lack of check d and balance, lack of honesty, sense of national community etc... and if you look at theground reality, you would agree that all what I’ve said we lack is exactly what is killing us in our development. Add to that the tribal, biradery and biryanis plate mindset
I wholeheartedly agree with you. For us Overseas Pakistanis, Pakistan becomes even more an Idea then a specific physical space the longer we are away. I in no way wanted to diminish the contributions Overseas Pakistanis want to contribute.

On one level I didn’t feel it was my place, and that resident Pakistanis may feel I was transgressing in some way, when I bring up ideas that work in a foreign context, or especially in other populations.

But by talking to you I see that we can’t compromise on being seen as equally Pakistanis. Having recently become a father, I have redoubled my interest in contributing to the development of the nation, not just for myself but to ensure a future home for my child, who definitely seems happier in Pakistan than New York. :)
 

Vortex

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I wholeheartedly agree with you. For us Overseas Pakistanis, Pakistan becomes even more an Idea then a specific physical space the longer we are away. I in no way wanted to diminish the contributions Overseas Pakistanis want to contribute.

On one level I didn’t feel it was my place, and that resident Pakistanis may feel I was transgressing in some way, when I bring up ideas that work in a foreign context, or especially in other populations.

But by talking to you I see that we can’t compromise on being seen as equally Pakistanis. Having recently become a father, I have redoubled my interest in contributing to the development of the nation, not just for myself but to ensure a future home for my child, who definitely seems happier in Pakistan than New York. :)
But don’t forget, dual nationality means you have responsibilities and loyalty towards 2 countries !
Don’t forget that and never compromise your loyalties towards both countries.
Stay honest, hardworking guy, walk on the path of good, and avoid wrong, in both countries. They are both yours countries.
 

FuturePAF

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But don’t forget, dual nationality means you have responsibilities and loyalty towards 2 countries !
Don’t forget that and never compromise your loyalties towards both countries.
Stay honest, hardworking guy, walk on the path of good, and avoid wrong, in both countries. They are both yours countries.
True. Don’t worry, I never forget that. I’m loyal to both countries, would never do any thing to hurt either, and hope for the best for both countries.
 

peagle

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Bro I understand what you mean. But for that we need a sens of being Pakistani too. And if we hear that we are second class Pakistanis only, be sure, maybe not us, but our children will forgot our country.
How will you treat your family if your family reject you ? This is the main point !

Why do we have so many traitor among us ? Is it in our DNA ? Or is it because the environment, the way we treat each others make traitors ? What makes the link between the individual and the national community ? Especially if you differentiate Pakistanis from Pakistanis ? Isn’t it the main point why we still are running right and left to find our National Identity and UNITY ? Isn’t it what we really lack in Pakistan ? And why we lack it still after 70 years of existence of Pakistan ?

Even if we get involved in our host country’s politics, if you are expelling the dual nationals from Pakistan’s politics, then you won’t help at all. You will close the doors of well educated and honest people bringing huge experiences from abroad just because they won’t feel being in their own country.

Jewish worked hard despite being harassed and even killed but they built a strong sense of being Sons of Israel. That’s why they are helping Israel since ages.
It’s in this way I’m advocating not to expel dual nationals from Pakistanis politics.





i understand your worries and they are valid.
But to mitigate them we have to build proper mécanismes to control every critical seats. A system of check and balance, an Intel service specifically tasked to keep a check on everyone of the high ranking sea

Again as I have already said, Pakistanis are lacking honesty, sense of patriotism etc and thus we are failing as a Nation, and are making traitors.

The real problem is not being or not being dual national. But the lack of accountability, the lack of check d and balance, lack of honesty, sense of national community etc... and if you look at theground reality, you would agree that all what I’ve said we lack is exactly what is killing us in our development. Add to that the tribal, biradery and biryanis plate mindset
Let us get one thing out of the way, there are no traitors among us, that's a weak mindset. There are Pakistanis with different points of view and there are Pakistanis with extreme stupidity. But it does not make them traitors, just because they have a totally different view from someone else.
Let's leave these traitors thinking to the Indians, by blaming people for being traitors, you weaken the nation and create insecurities, that is never good for a stable society.

I have to say you are making a lot of assumptions in your statement, that are just not true. There are many examples, but ill give you an example on our eastern border. The Indians do not even have a dual nationality concept, there are Indians who were moved by the British to all parts of the world, over a hundred years ago, but yet they see themselves as Indians and are ether proud of being an Indian directly, or proud of their heritage.

I have known Pakistanis, who have never been to Pakistan, but still were proud to be Pakistani, I knew people who were moved by the British before 1947 but originated from the parts that make up Pakistan today, no one in generations had been to Pakistan, BUT, they felt proud to be Pakistani

Your links, your pride, your love of being a Pakistani does not come from a piece of paper, nor does it come from active involvement in Pakistani politics. that's a very weak assumption. There is plenty that holds us together with Pakistan other than politics, and active involvement in politics. That only weakens us in the countries in which we live.

Please let us not adopt simplistic views on issues, my Pakistaniat nor anyone else's does not depend on if I can vote in Pakistani elections or any other political activity.
 

Vortex

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Let us get one thing out of the way, there are no traitors among us, that's a weak mindset. There are Pakistanis with different points of view and there are Pakistanis with extreme stupidity. But it does not make them traitors, just because they have a totally different view from someone else.
Let's leave these traitors thinking to the Indians, by blaming people for being traitors, you weaken the nation and create insecurities, that is never good for a stable society.

I have to say you are making a lot of assumptions in your statement, that are just not true. There are many examples, but ill give you an example on our eastern border. The Indians do not even have a dual nationality concept, there are Indians who were moved by the British to all parts of the world, over a hundred years ago, but yet they see themselves as Indians and are ether proud of being an Indian directly, or proud of their heritage.

I have known Pakistanis, who have never been to Pakistan, but still were proud to be Pakistani, I knew people who were moved by the British before 1947 but originated from the parts that make up Pakistan today, no one in generations had been to Pakistan, BUT, they felt proud to be Pakistani

Your links, your pride, your love of being a Pakistani does not come from a piece of paper, nor does it come from active involvement in Pakistani politics. that's a very weak assumption. There is plenty that holds us together with Pakistan other than politics, and active involvement in politics. That only weakens us in the countries in which we live.

Please let us not adopt simplistic views on issues, my Pakistaniat nor anyone else's does not depend on if I can vote in Pakistani elections or any other political activity.
Maybe you have misunderstood because I have expressed in non perfect English as it is not my first language.

i meant that overseas dual nationality holders Pakistanis should not be banned from participating in Pakistan’s politics as few members advocate for in the nameof security or risk of corruptionand what not.
If you start to exclude some people from Pakistani’s politics, you are making second class Pakistanis.

I’m not saying that every overseas dual nationality holder should be involved in politics but if any dual nationality holder want to, then he should not be banned to do so.

The traitors I was talking about was in the context of the security risks they could represent if they get critical seats,

As need to be dual nationality holder to be traitors, the corrupts people don’t need to be dual national to do corruption.

All we need are good checks and balance system and the top number One : Honesty.

If we start to exclude from being people because they are dual national, they what they will feel about their own countrymen and their country ? Would they be still patriot ? Proud of being Pakistani ?

Notice I’m not talking about dual national holder who do not want to be involved in politics.
 

GriffinsRule

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PM is right in that there has been a severe brain drain from Pakistan, like most of the developing world and those smart Pakistanis who got a chance to leave the country and learn/work abroad have a greater variety of experience and exposure that should be tapped into.
 

El Sidd

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PM is right in that there has been a severe brain drain from Pakistan, like most of the developing world and those smart Pakistanis who got a chance to leave the country and learn/work abroad have a greater variety of experience and exposure that should be tapped into.
Politics and Academia are different.

PM has his funders to keep happy too by these nonsensical statements which go against logic, nature and not that it matters to him, the constitution.
 

GriffinsRule

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Politics and Academia are different.

PM has his funders to keep happy too by these nonsensical statements which go against logic, nature and not that it matters to him, the constitution.
Is it against the constitution? Didnt we have finance ministers that were expats before during Musharraf era? How about the traitor Haqqani?
And ways, if it is against the constitution, then it can be amended and the jobs be restricted to certain functions of the government etc. Its not hard conceptually but implementing it in Pakistan is a different story.
 

El Sidd

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Is it against the constitution? Didnt we have finance ministers that were expats before during Musharraf era? How about the traitor Haqqani?
And ways, if it is against the constitution, then it can be amended and the jobs be restricted to certain functions of the government etc. Its not hard conceptually but implementing it in Pakistan is a different story.
It's not fair and against natural law.

The assumption that barbarians must be sent satraps from abroad to be governed productively is downright insulting.

Just because people are violating the constitution and rules do not make them eligible to become laws and amendments.
 

peagle

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Maybe you have misunderstood because I have expressed in non perfect English as it is not my first language.
i meant that overseas dual nationality holders Pakistanis should not be banned from participating in Pakistan’s politics as few members advocate for in the nameof security or risk of corruptionand what not.
If you start to exclude some people from Pakistani’s politics, you are making second class Pakistanis.
I’m not saying that every overseas dual nationality holder should be involved in politics but if any dual nationality holder want to, then he should not be banned to do so.
You don't need to put yourself down, your English is very good, and I understood you perfectly. I have a feeling you are not understanding what I am saying.

It is not a case of being banned, it is about holding public office, dual nationals cannot hold public office even now, but they are still very active in Pakistani politics, far more than they should be, if they are allowed to hold a public office, it will go crazy.

People are allowed to do so many things right now, nothing affects them in a negative manner. Surely only the people living inside the country should have active involvement in the politics of that country, those living outside should remain active in their home countries.

You keep making wild assumptions, I don't think you understand the topic fully. It does not make them second-class citizens, where did you get that from, that's crazy, it has nothing to do with it. Please do not make wild statements if you do not know what they mean.

All we need are good checks and balance system and the top number One : Honesty.
If we start to exclude from being people because they are dual national, they what they will feel about their own countrymen and their country ? Would they be still patriot ? Proud of being Pakistani ?

Notice I’m not talking about dual national holder who do not want to be involved in politics.
Again you are making wild assumptions, based on some weird logic.

They will feel nothing negative about their country because they don't have the right to hold public office right now,
they still love Pakistan,
they still are proud patriots,
they still are proud Pakistanis.

Why are you even thinking of these things, they sound insane.

When you make rules, you do not pick and choose, the rule applies to everyone, obviously, not everyone gets involved in politics, just like not every single one of 230 million Pakistanis is involved in politics, only some are, but laws are made for everyone.

It is about making laws that make sense, and laws that are fair. The ability to hold a public office has nothing to do with the love of your country, that's insane. You cannot judge who is good or bad and who is honest or dishonest.

Overseas Pakistanis have more than enough rights even now, giving them more rights to be involved in Pakistani politics and hold public office will affect the development of Pakistani communities in the countries where they live, it cannot be more clear.
 

GriffinsRule

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It's not fair and against natural law.

The assumption that barbarians must be sent satraps from abroad to be governed productively is downright insulting.

Just because people are violating the constitution and rules do not make them eligible to become laws and amendments.
Insulting but true
 

Vortex

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You don't need to put yourself down, your English is very good, and I understood you perfectly. I have a feeling you are not understanding what I am saying.

It is not a case of being banned, it is about holding public office, dual nationals cannot hold public office even now, but they are still very active in Pakistani politics, far more than they should be, if they are allowed to hold a public office, it will go crazy.

People are allowed to do so many things right now, nothing affects them in a negative manner. Surely only the people living inside the country should have active involvement in the politics of that country, those living outside should remain active in their home countries.

You keep making wild assumptions, I don't think you understand the topic fully. It does not make them second-class citizens, where did you get that from, that's crazy, it has nothing to do with it. Please do not make wild statements if you do not know what they mean.



Again you are making wild assumptions, based on some weird logic.

They will feel nothing negative about their country because they don't have the right to hold public office right now,
they still love Pakistan,
they still are proud patriots,
they still are proud Pakistanis.

Why are you even thinking of these things, they sound insane.

When you make rules, you do not pick and choose, the rule applies to everyone, obviously, not everyone gets involved in politics, just like not every single one of 230 million Pakistanis is involved in politics, only some are, but laws are made for everyone.

It is about making laws that make sense, and laws that are fair. The ability to hold a public office has nothing to do with the love of your country, that's insane. You cannot judge who is good or bad and who is honest or dishonest.

Overseas Pakistanis have more than enough rights even now, giving them more rights to be involved in Pakistani politics and hold public office will affect the development of Pakistani communities in the countries where they live, it cannot be more clear.
Thanks bro for my English ☺
But yes sometimes I misunderstood what is written due to « faux amis » same words as in french but different meaning and also think that what I wrote is exactly what I meant but sometimes it is not. So yes it’s possible that I have some understanding issue.

But still I’m advocating that people should not be banned, just put strong checks and balances.

According to you what is or are the reasons to not allow dual nationality holders to hold public office ?
 

peagle

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Thanks bro for my English ☺
But yes sometimes I misunderstood what is written due to « faux amis » same words as in french but different meaning and also think that what I wrote is exactly what I meant but sometimes it is not. So yes it’s possible that I have some understanding issue.

But still I’m advocating that people should not be banned, just put strong checks and balances.

According to you what is or are the reasons to not allow dual nationality holders to hold public office ?
Again, you seem to be obsessed with the word "banned", this term does not apply to this situation, and it is wrong.

If you read my replies again, you will find I have already, more than once given very clear reasons why dual nationals should not be allowed to hold public office.

I think you are reading too fast, and you miss the understanding, please read again and you will find my reasons, and they are very clear.

It will be an extremely stupid idea to allow dual nationals to hold public office, extremely stupid. Please go back and read again, if you disagree with anything I said then let me know.

Love and loyalty for pakistan has nothing ot do with the ability to hold a public office.
 

Vortex

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Again, you seem to be obsessed with the word "banned", this term does not apply to this situation, and it is wrong.

If you read my replies again, you will find I have already, more than once given very clear reasons why dual nationals should not be allowed to hold public office.

I think you are reading too fast, and you miss the understanding, please read again and you will find my reasons, and they are very clear.

It will be an extremely stupid idea to allow dual nationals to hold public office, extremely stupid. Please go back and read again, if you disagree with anything I said then let me know.

Love and loyalty for pakistan has nothing ot do with the ability to hold a public office.
i will reread all previous posts as soon I have time bro.
 

Vortex

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Again, you seem to be obsessed with the word "banned", this term does not apply to this situation, and it is wrong.

If you read my replies again, you will find I have already, more than once given very clear reasons why dual nationals should not be allowed to hold public office.

I think you are reading too fast, and you miss the understanding, please read again and you will find my reasons, and they are very clear.

It will be an extremely stupid idea to allow dual nationals to hold public office, extremely stupid. Please go back and read again, if you disagree with anything I said then let me know.

Love and loyalty for pakistan has nothing ot do with the ability to hold a public office.
Well bro, I didn’t had time to reread all posts, but having listened to PM Imran Khan’s speech after confidence vote, I understand the need to ban any dual national to hold public office.

I think that I became over emotional when I read here someone wrote that dual national must stay out of Pakistan’s politic. Over emotional despite being single nationality holder myself. Yes I don’t have French nationality. I’m simple overseas Pakistani residing in France because I’ve followed my father in my childhood. But it doesn’t mean that I don’t see France as my second home country despite all what had been said about this country and despite all the shor shraba we heard against Islamists and the caricatures.

My point of view was that we can have (maybe wrongly) some mitigations processes to avoid that but, after having listened Imran Khan’s speech today, I say humbly that you all were / are correct. Because they have means to channel money outside of the country.
So yes you all are right and I was wrong.



@TNT @FuturePAF @CodeforFood @Old School @El Sidd

I hope I didn’t forget tagging someone involved in this discussion with me.
 

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