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Persian as a mandatory subject in schools?

EGalois

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Ok but tell me honestly wasn’t the Persian language also influenced by other languages through their contacts with others civilizations ?
Every language is able to evolve, it only depends on the abilities of the people who use it.
So if we just created Pakistan today we could have set Persian as our language but now we already set Urdu as our national language. At historical timescale 70 years is nothing. But at individual level it’s very long.
So we started with Urdu, stay with it, and focus on it.
You are totally correct. But the Persian-speaking people came to the subcontinent not as colonizers. And those people who subsequently wrote in Persian were not colonizers. I'm not denying that Urdu be the national language. I'm saying that Persian is inseparable from the Urdu heritage. It should NOT be treated as a foreign not taught as a foreign language, but as a classical language.

The British were different. The impact of European imperialism still exists in modern Pakistan. Let's not pretend that English and Urdu are really perceived as equally prestigious. The permeation of English in modern Urdu discourse gives Pakistanis an inferior complex with compared to Europeans. It's as if all the elevated speech were English.

A nation needs to unite its people with a cultural heritage. And that cannot be the Anglocentric colonial one. You HAVE TO look back before the colonial rule. And that's when Persian was the lingua franca from Iraq to Bengal.
 

Vortex

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Everything written by South Asians till 1837, when the British forced your ancestors to give up Persian.

For example, if you want to learn about the deeds of the Sultans, you need to look at their Persian panegyrics.

If you want to learn about the history of Muslims in South Asia before the British came, you need to read works in Persian.

Even after 1837, Sir Allama Iqbal wrote his best works in Persian. Isn't he considered the spiritual father of Pakistan? Yet nobody reads his most important works?
Thanks.
I could add now that others civilizations which were successful were the ones who translated others languages written books in their own language. They were able to appropriate the knowledge. Have a look at the Chinese tandem their successful development. One of its factor is that they successfully able to self appropriate others knowledges. We can do it in Urdu. Now scientific development is made in English, French, German, Japanese, Chinese.... for historical events, then few one knowing Persian and Urdu should translate the works. No need to do more than that.
There is no harm in keep trying
Will never work unless they create their own devices, based on their own architectures, your own protocoles etc, you could use every language to encrypt your coms, if you use intel processors you are doomed.
You are totally correct. But the Persian-speaking people came to the subcontinent not as colonizers. And those people who subsequently wrote in Persian were not colonizers. I'm not denying that Urdu be the national language. I'm saying that Persian is inseparable from the Urdu heritage. It should NOT be treated as a foreign not taught as a foreign language, but as a classical language.

The British were different. The impact of European imperialism still exists in modern Pakistan. Let's not pretend that English and Urdu are really perceived as equally prestigious. The permeation of English in modern Urdu discourse gives Pakistanis an inferior complex with compared to Europeans. It's as if all the elevated speech were English.

A nation needs to unite its people with a cultural heritage. And that cannot be the Anglocentric colonial one. You HAVE TO look back before the colonial rule. And that's when Persian was the lingua franca from Iraq to Bengal.
ok. But for many many people it’s a dead period.
Even in France even they teach history about their ancient times they do it in French which is as you said rooted in Latin language which was the language of invaders.
All ancient times are dead for everyone.

If people perceive English as superior to Urdu, it’s the failure of our educational system, we were not able to introduce the concepts brought by British in our own language. We are not able even today to improve our educational system and you want to add another language ? As I said we have to prioritize, and when all what should be our priorities will be fixed then only then why not...
think about future not past.
 
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The Persian language is central to South Asia's Muslim heritage. Pakistan was built to be a nation-state of South Asian Muslims. So why is Persian not taught in Pakistani schools? It should be treated as a classical heritage language. One can not fully appreciate Urdu literature without studying Persian literature.

If Pakistan should seek its national identity, it should be a South Asian Persianate one. In fact, many non-Muslims (Hindus, Sikhs, Christians) participated in the South Asian Persianate cultural milieu. Pakistan should revive this pan-religious cultural heritage, which is lost in India and Bangladesh.

The Persianate heritage is deeply tolerant regarding religions. Some of the best South Asian poets wrote in Persian. Allama Iqbal wrote mostly in Persian; The poems carved on the walls of Taj Mahal are in Persian; It's sad that these cultural achievements are not appreciated by today's South Asians. India and Bangladesh decide to abandon it. Pakistan should pick it up. It's a distinctive South Asian cultural identity that is historically linked to Muslims. By embracing it Pakistan can distinguish itself from India and Bangladesh, yet not forget its own South Asian, rather than Arab or Turkic identity.

Persian shouldn't be a difficult language to learn to read if one knows Urdu. Pakistani students should learn it the same way as Westerners learn Latin: to have some reading capabilities to get access to its culture heritage.
you have made very firm points in your post
I love your essay

ALLAH made every language
every language is good but some of them are distinct from others

Urdu + Arabic should be primary, then Farsi and English
there must be English as a language but never as a medium of learning,
the brain thinks understand and process information in its native parent language

Just like the Visionary Sir Syed Ahmed Khan has already said in his letter during his visit to UK,
he said that we shall learn English but we shall only get educated in our own parent language.
 
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Regional integration!!! That is it...
Who and what does Pakistan wants to be associated with? As it is Pakistan stands as a frontier between Muslims and hostile pagan lands east of it...
Pakistan needs to integrate not only itself with its neighbors it wants to be associated with and create a new reality. Which means developing skill sets, knowledge, communication and foremost access!
Pakistan doesn't need the whole state to start speaking Persian or Arabic but just enough people that can start people to people contact possible so that regional integration can be brought about at a faster pace. Every state bordering Pakistans west Iran, Afghanistan and Tajikistan speak a version of Persian ... and only a few hundred miles of sea splits the Arab lands... it is the jitters of rocking the boat... keeping the ride going until it literally falls apart which keeps the current paradigm going... why else would Pakistan keep right hand drive or drive the wrong side of the road as I would put it when every state bordering Pakistan drives the opposite except India and with which Pakistan has no trade less any need for vehicular transportation. But, Pakistan is building a corridor that will connect every state the drives on the wrong side of the road! Get it... I know it is a tangent but the two things are inherently connected with Pakistans past... and it is way past the hour to move along!
Only a bold selfless person can do this for Pakistan and its millions of people... reorient the society, delegate powers to the people at much lower level... state only takes certain defined roles at federal level... create national institutions in a real sense and national centers of knowledge while storing and deciphering existing and older...
Back to the topic Pakistan's is naturally connected to all the Muslims bordering on tbe western frontiers... it is the rightful champion of regions Muslims, their cause and their voice... it should act like one!
Who would come and tell all that Brits have left with their wingmen intact... still choosing to die and/or retire in good ole Britain while moving their kids there...
 
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Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

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@peagle We were discussing this the other day.

The Persian language is central to South Asia's Muslim heritage. Pakistan was built to be a nation-state of South Asian Muslims. So why is Persian not taught in Pakistani schools? It should be treated as a classical heritage language. One can not fully appreciate Urdu literature without studying Persian literature.

If Pakistan should seek its national identity, it should be a South Asian Persianate one. In fact, many non-Muslims (Hindus, Sikhs, Christians) participated in the South Asian Persianate cultural milieu. Pakistan should revive this pan-religious cultural heritage, which is lost in India and Bangladesh.

The Persianate heritage is deeply tolerant regarding religions. Some of the best South Asian poets wrote in Persian. Allama Iqbal wrote mostly in Persian; The poems carved on the walls of Taj Mahal are in Persian; It's sad that these cultural achievements are not appreciated by today's South Asians. India and Bangladesh decide to abandon it. Pakistan should pick it up. It's a distinctive South Asian cultural identity that is historically linked to Muslims. By embracing it Pakistan can distinguish itself from India and Bangladesh, yet not forget its own South Asian, rather than Arab or Turkic identity.

Persian shouldn't be a difficult language to learn to read if one knows Urdu. Pakistani students should learn it the same way as Westerners learn Latin: to have some reading capabilities to get access to its culture heritage.
I am very curious about whether you are actually Chinese and American.

I understand if you are Pakistani or Afghan, we have vested interests in the Dari language, but it seems a little strange coming from your background (if your flags are correct.)

I can definitely see Pukhto, Dari, and Turkish having a major affect on Pakistan in the future, culturally and diplomatically.

Farsi or Persian was the lingua franca of the Mughul Court and Urdu is heavily influenced by Farsi. It would be very easy for Pakistanis to adopt Farsi as Afghan Dari is also Farsi based. It would be very beneficial for Pakistanis is terms of unified national identity and social, economic and cultural integration with Iran and Afghanistan and Tajikistan.
I have heard many Afghans talk this way but never an Iranian.

Persianate Islamic world is currently in a mess due to sectarian differences and some strange alliances of Iran (like India.) I can only really see some unity between Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Tajikstan, who also share commonalities with Turks.

Indeed. The way some Pakistanis pander themselves to Turkey is sickening.
Don't feed the troll. Stay on topic.
 

EGalois

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@peagle We were discussing this the other day.



I am very curious about whether you are actually Chinese and American.

I understand if you are Pakistani or Afghan, we have vested interests in the Dari language, but it seems a little strange coming from your background (if your flags are correct.)

I can definitely see Pukhto, Dari, and Turkish having a major affect on Pakistan in the future, culturally and diplomatically.



I have heard many Afghans talk this way but never an Iranian.

Persianate Islamic world is currently in a mess due to sectarian differences and some strange alliances of Iran (like India.) I can only really see some unity between Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Tajikstan, who also share commonalities with Turks.



Don't feed the troll. Stay on topic.
I'm Chinese living in America. But I'm interested in the Persianate heritage and I am learning Farsi.

Iran's pretty much gone now. They'll never pick up the Persianate heritage. There are currently two conflicting but also mixing identities in Iran: Aryan nationalism and Shia Islam.

The Aryanists believe in Pre-Islamic Persia. They think that Islam is a poison for Iran and pre-Islamic Iran was much greater than its Islamic history. Many of them are atheists. (yes, there are a lot of atheists in Iran, and they are vehemently anti-Islam)

The Shia Islamists are also very proud of pre-Islamic Iran, but they seek to defend Iran's Shiite identity. The Persianate world was largely Sunni so they are not interested in the Persianate heritage outside of Iran either.

Nobody in Iran is interested in the Persianate world.

Central Asian countries now are very secular and Turkic nationalist. They don't like the Persianate heritage either.

Only the Afghan Tajiks cherish this heritage. The Pashtuns are high on Pashtun nationalism.
 
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Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

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I'm Chinese living in America. But I'm interested in the Persianate heritage and I am learning Farsi.
As a fellow student, hale shoma chetore?

I have been teaching myself Dari and elevated Urdu for quite some time via poetry of Allama Iqbal, Rumi, and Hafez. I am more interested in the Sunni Islamic poetic traditions in Dari/Farsi.

I am also a life-long student of Islamic theology and jurisprudence. I am pretty good with Classical Arabic for this reason. Somewhere in there, I have also started to learn Turkish. I have many friends from Turkey, and would definitely like to visit and maybe stay for a while.

I had been discussing this topic with a brother I tagged in the last post, and we both came to the conclusion that Urdu is not going anywhere. Urdu will remain the language of the Pakistani homeland (including occupied Kashmir,) but I believe that Dari would help Pakistan greatly in Afghanistan and Tajikstan.

Actually a major problem we have in Afghanistan is that we have influence among Pukhtoons only, because Iran dominates the Dari speaking regions' culturally, even though most of them are Sunni Muslim. This has turned them into a breeding ground for anti-Pakistani sentiment.

Pakistan needs to work on this as Afghanistan and Tajikstan are so important for the future safety and security of our country.
 

EGalois

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As a fellow student, hale shoma chetore?

I have been teaching myself Dari and elevated Urdu for quite some time via poetry of Allama Iqbal, Rumi, and Hafez. I am more interested in the Sunni Islamic poetic traditions in Dari/Farsi.

I am also a life-long student of Islamic theology and jurisprudence. I am pretty good with Classical Arabic for this reason. Somewhere in there, I have also started to learn Turkish. I have many friends from Turkey, and would definitely like to visit and maybe stay for a while.

I had been discussing this topic with a brother I tagged in the last post, and we both came to the conclusion that Urdu is not going anywhere. Urdu will remain the language of the Pakistani homeland (including occupied Kashmir,) but I believe that Dari would help Pakistan greatly in Afghanistan and Tajikstan.

Actually a major problem we have in Afghanistan is that we have influence among Pukhtoons only, because Iran dominates the Dari speaking regions' culturally, even though most of them are Sunni Muslim. This has turned them into a breeding ground for anti-Pakistani sentiment.

Pakistan needs to work on this as Afghanistan and Tajikstan are so important for the future safety and security of our country.
ممنون. هال من خوب است.

I don't know anything about Arabic or Turkish. But I know that modern Turkish is a heavily de-Islamized and turkified version of Turkish, not the one used by the Ottomans.

I think Afghanistan will in the end decide its own future independently of either Pakistan or Iran. Afghanistani are fed up with being played as a ball between other powers. I also believe that most people in the countries are fed up with their poverty and would like to put the economy first.

Historically this area was prosperous and culturally advanced. The British and the Russians broke it up. Now it's time for a regional re-integration.

I doubt if most Iranians care about the Dari. The dominant ideology in Iran is Shiite Revolutionary Islamism and Iranian nationalism. The Dari do not fit in either.
 

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

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But I know that modern Turkish is a heavily de-Islamized and turkified version of Turkish, not the one used by the Ottomans.
We still have many common words with Turkish in Urdu, and many of the same religious concepts due to Sufism.

I think Afghanistan will in the end decide its own future independently of either Pakistan or Iran. Afghanistani are fed up with being played as a ball between other powers. I also believe that most people in the countries are fed up with their poverty and would like to put the economy first.
This is not accurate, actually, but more like Kabulie view.

Many Afghans are in favor of merger with Pakistan, esp Pukhtoons who are the majority.

Historically this area was prosperous and culturally advanced. The British and the Russians broke it up. Now it's time for a regional re-integration.
Historically Pakistan and Afghanistan were the same country. See for instance the Durrani empire map.

I doubt if most Iranians care about the Dari. The dominant ideology in Iran is Shiite Revolutionary Islamism and Iranian nationalism. The Dari do not fit in either.
It is more like a spoiler in Afghanistan against Taliban, and to prevent full closure of the war in Afghanistan, but now Iranian influence is minimal, so I strongly believe that a long era of peace will begin, with Pakistan as its guarantor.

Traditionally Pakistanis spoke Dari also. Which is a more traditional and pure form of ancient Aryan languages. Farsi has alot more Arabic and French influence.
 

EGalois

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We still have many common words with Turkish in Urdu, and many of the same religious concepts due to Sufism.



This is not accurate, actually, but more like Kabulie view.

Many Afghans are in favor of merger with Pakistan, esp Pukhtoons who are the majority.



Historically Pakistan and Afghanistan were the same country. See for instance the Durrani empire map.



It is more like a spoiler in Afghanistan against Taliban, and to prevent full closure of the war in Afghanistan, but now Iranian influence is minimal, so I strongly believe that a long era of peace will begin, with Pakistan as its guarantor.

Traditionally Pakistanis spoke Dari also. Which is a more traditional and pure form of ancient Aryan languages. Farsi has alot more Arabic and French influence.
Yes, I know the history very well. It's nearly impossible to change fixed borders now. So the Durrand line will stay there. I think Pakistan should be working on stabilizing Afghanistan and making it a trade partner. Afghanistan relies on Pakistan for its export anyway, as Iran is not reliable.
 

EGalois

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We should teach Python language (for Artificial intelligence) not Persian language

Otherwise wait for next 1971
If Persian had been made the lingua franca, 1971 might not have had happened.
First you need to have a nation, then you can talk about modernization and high-tech. A completely utilitarian view on this issue is misleading. Teaching Persian is NOT back looking, but to better understand yourselves.
 

peagle

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@peagle We were discussing this the other day.



I am very curious about whether you are actually Chinese and American.

I understand if you are Pakistani or Afghan, we have vested interests in the Dari language, but it seems a little strange coming from your background (if your flags are correct.)

I can definitely see Pukhto, Dari, and Turkish having a major affect on Pakistan in the future, culturally and diplomatically.



I have heard many Afghans talk this way but never an Iranian.

Persianate Islamic world is currently in a mess due to sectarian differences and some strange alliances of Iran (like India.) I can only really see some unity between Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Tajikstan, who also share commonalities with Turks.



Don't feed the troll. Stay on topic.
Any extra mandatory language is totally illogical and waste of resources.
Pakistan has a rich cultural, religious and linguistic heritage that does not align itself to a single entity, but rather obsorbs them within a single self. Our identity is a resolved issue now, we are a hot blooded lot so there's always drama, it doesn't change the fact that people on the ground have an intense Pakistani identity attached to their sense of self.

These people need to keep their hatred of the other to themselves and not bring it to us, they are busy hating the Turk or the Arab or whoever else, i think that's pathetic and sick. I love my Persian brothers and sisters just as much as the Turks or the Arabs.

We are the larger brother by far, if anything, they should be learning from us. But, as extra optional languages, I think it makes lot sense and it would be a good idea. Persian, Turkish and Arabic, as long as it does not translate to their hatred of each other also coming into Pakistan. Seriously what is wrong with these lots, and their hatred of each other, get over it for Allah sake.
we both came to the conclusion that Urdu is not going anywhere
Sorry bro, I think you may have inferred that from out discussion, I hold no such belief.
I agree it won't be a global language but it will be an important language. With an eventual population of 400 million, any language that pakistan speaks is going to matter. Urdu is going to matter far more then Persian or Turkish and certainly Dari.

My support for availability of other languages is merely based on pan-islam idealism, not an undermining of my own identity, especially, when I am the largest one in the room.

ECO, pakistan has half the population of ECO countries and will have more than half in future, I've never heard of a case where the majority adopts itself totally to placate a much smaller group.
 
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