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Persian as a mandatory subject in schools?

EGalois

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Hmm we will become schizophrenic lol.
Let’s built our country on Urdu. We have to write our future History.
Totally agree with that. But how many Pakistanis speak proper Urdu instead of an ad hoc Urdu-English mix?

The PPP doesn't even write the name of the party in Urdu. I was very surprised when I saw the PPP call itself پاکستان پیپلز پارطی. This is weird, not in a good sense.

For Urdu to thrive, it needs to elevate itself first. People need to use elevated Urdu with vocabulary drawn from its classical literature, not English.
 

Vortex

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Indeed. The way some Pakistanis pander themselves to Turkey is sickening.

But most schools still offer Latin. And frankly, France does not have the same identity dilemma as Pakistan does: after all, French itself is vulgarized modern Latin.
rough number of students in France 12 millions. Rough number of Latin learners 450 000. (figures may not be up to date — 2015-2019).

draw the conclusion.
 

EGalois

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rough number of students in France 12 millions. Rough number of Latin learners 450 000. (figures may not be up to date — 2015-2019).

draw the conclusion.
But the French language itself is a modern version of Latin, like I said. French draws its elevated vocabulary from Latin. Modern Pakistanis speak Urdu with elevated vocabulary from English.
 

Vortex

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Totally agree with that. But how many Pakistanis speak proper Urdu instead of an ad hoc Urdu-English mix?

The PPP doesn't even write the name of the party in Urdu. I was very surprised when I saw the PPP call itself پاکستان پیپلز پارطی. This is weird, not in a good sense.

For Urdu to thrive, it needs to elevate itself first. People need to use elevated Urdu with vocabulary drawn from its classical literature, not English.
Ok. But hey how you will said atom ? Plutonium ? Missiles ? Condom ? Électron ? Neuton ? Quasars ? Scanner ? Computer ? IT ? in Persian and in Urdu ? If you can add those words in Persian you could find a way to add them in Urdu too. Every language could evolve, could introduce foreign words...

But if we don’t know proper Urdu, tell me would we really high level Persian ? You are adding more difficulties than solving issues we are facing with Persian.
As I have said : focus should be on how to unite people in Pakistan first. Let’s base it on what we have : URDU.
Why most of us don’t speak proper Urdu (including myself) ? Isn’t our educational system issue to be fixed ?
I understand that many of brothers have affinity with Iran, and many others brothers have not. And I respect both. But we need to build a Nation. Not to attach it with others despite some affinities.
 

EGalois

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پاکستان مسلم لیگ (ن) is frankly more pathetic way of calling yourself.
Ok. But hey how you will said atom ? Plutonium ? Missiles ? Condom ? Électron ? Neuton ? Quasars ? Scanner ? Computer ? IT ? in Persian and in Urdu ? If you can add those words in Persian you could find a way to add them in Urdu too. Every language could evolve, could introduce foreign words...

But if we don’t know proper Urdu, tell me would we really high level Persian ? You are adding more difficulties than solving issues we are facing with Persian.
As I have said : focus should be on how to unite people in Pakistan first. Let’s base it on what we have : URDU.
Why most of us don’t speak proper Urdu (including myself) ? Isn’t our educational system issue to be fixed ?
I understand that many of brothers have affinity with Iran, and many others brothers have not. And I respect both. But we need to build a Nation. Not to attach it with others despite some affinities.
Atom, Plutonium etc can just be transliterated. This is fine, as they are words in modern science and culturally neutral. But do you really need to say 'People', 'League', "congress', 'parliament', 'politics', 'supreme court' in transliterated English? These words are not culturally neutral. By using the English word, you are reaffirming the cultural superiority of English. It's a colonial mindset.

Students need not achieve a high level of proficiency in Persian. But they should be guided to read through some classical Persian works, at least some by Allama Iqbal. You don't need to practice Persian every day to do that. You don't need to speak Persian fluently. It takes less work that you can imagine.

Once again, Persianate heritage has nothing to do with Iran. It's once the lingua franca of the Eastern Islamic world (east of Iraq) , used by scholars and poets of many different cultures and ethnicities. Many Hindus and Sikhs wrote poetry in Persian.
 

Vortex

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But the French language itself is a modern version of Latin, like I said. French draws its elevated vocabulary from Latin. Modern Pakistanis speak Urdu with elevated vocabulary from English.
yes but because of invasions this language took over over others languages spoken in France. And then due to religious reasons. Then the scientific progress used what was at their disposal. That’s all. Had the Urdu been spread, they would have continued in Urdu.

now if you introduce Persian as our « identity » or « cultural » language then I’m sure it will be perceived as another foreign language. Even if Urdu has some roots with Persian or some kind of meltingpot with it, it will be not perceived as our ownlanguage. And what couldit bring to our development Which Urdu can’t ?
Atom, Plutonium etc can just be transliterated. This is fine, as they are words in modern science and culturally neutral. But do you really need to say 'People', 'League', "congress', 'parliament', 'politics', 'supreme court' in transliterated English? These words are not culturally neutral. By using the English word, you are reaffirming the cultural superiority of English. It's a colonial mindset.
do you know that even in French there are many words who have Arabic roots ? Even if they evolved over centuries
It’s not about superiority but about ideas, concepts which came through contacts. That’s not humiliating at all.

As those words I have cited and the one who have cited are really new words to us in historical timescales. Maybe in few centuries we will use our own made words instead of the one which are not ours at the moment.
Urdu is able to evolve as any other language.
 
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EGalois

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Even if Urdu has some roots with Persian or some kind of meltingpot with it, it will be not perceived as our ownlanguage. And what couldit bring to our development Which Urdu can’t ?
To say 'have some roots with Persian' is a deep underestimation. Urdu literature was born out of Persian literature. Why is Islamabad called Islam-abad? Why do people use the -e- structure as in Minar-e-Pakistan? Why is Punjab called 'Punj-ab'? And indeed, why is Pakistan 'Pak+stan'? What is 'Zinde+bad'? You live with Persian heritage without realizing it.

What can be gained for Pakistan? A decolonized Urdu discourse, A more robust, less ambiguous national identity. Better national cohesion.
 

Vortex

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Atom, Plutonium etc can just be transliterated. This is fine, as they are words in modern science and culturally neutral. But do you really need to say 'People', 'League', "congress', 'parliament', 'politics', 'supreme court' in transliterated English? These words are not culturally neutral. By using the English word, you are reaffirming the cultural superiority of English. It's a colonial mindset.

Students need not achieve a high level of proficiency in Persian. But they should be guided to read through some classical Persian works, at least some by Allama Iqbal. You don't need to practice Persian every day to do that. You don't need to speak Persian fluently. It takes less work that you can imagine.

Once again, Persianate heritage has nothing to do with Iran. It's once the lingua franca of the Eastern Islamic world (east of Iraq) , used by scholars and poets of many different cultures and ethnicities. Many Hindus and Sikhs wrote poetry in Persian.
what are the classical works in Persian you are talking about apart poetry ?
 

El Sidd

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Mandated by which province?

I can imagine Balochistan and KPK doing this for ease of business with their neighbouring dominions.
 

Vortex

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To say 'have some roots with Persian' is a deep underestimation. Urdu literature was born out of Persian literature. Why is Islamabad called Islam-abad? Why do people use the -e- structure as in Minar-e-Pakistan? Why is Punjab called 'Punj-ab'? And indeed, why is Pakistan 'Pak+stan'? What is 'Zinde+bad'? You live with Persian heritage without realizing it.

What can be gained for Pakistan? A decolonized Urdu discourse, A more robust, less ambiguous national identity. Better national cohesion.
Ok but tell me honestly wasn’t the Persian language also influenced by other languages through their contacts with others civilizations ?
Every language is able to evolve, it only depends on the abilities of the people who use it.
So if we just created Pakistan today we could have set Persian as our language but now we already set Urdu as our national language. At historical timescale 70 years is nothing. But at individual level it’s very long.
So we started with Urdu, stay with it, and focus on it.
 

EGalois

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what are the classical works in Persian you are talking about apart poetry ?
Everything written by South Asians till 1837, when the British forced your ancestors to give up Persian.

For example, if you want to learn about the deeds of the Sultans, you need to look at their Persian panegyrics.

If you want to learn about the history of Muslims in South Asia before the British came, you need to read works in Persian.

Even after 1837, Sir Allama Iqbal wrote his best works in Persian. Isn't he considered the spiritual father of Pakistan? Yet nobody reads his most important works?
 

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