• Monday, December 11, 2017

Pandora's Box - Religious Profiteering and Faizabad Incident

Discussion in 'Pakistani Siasat' started by Kaptaan, Dec 3, 2017.

  1. shah_123

    shah_123 FULL MEMBER

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    dawn news ........ :sarcastic:

    So what are the tools to break the status quo?
    unless something happens unusual,Pakistan will not be ready even in 60 years.

    liberals/seculars favorite darling Justice Munir the liar ............
     
  2. El Sidd

    El Sidd ELITE MEMBER

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    Strict accountability and merit based system
     
  3. I.R.A

    I.R.A SENIOR MEMBER

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    My dear sir, thank you for the good wishes ........ we hope whatever transpires after a century is the betterment of humans on both sides of this region.

    Coming to the article .......... its a usual incoherent mischievous malicious attempt of spreading propaganda, I haven't yet seen such a shinning example of intellectual dishonesty that tried equating Jinnah with Khadim Hussain, wasn't it Sultan Muhammad Shah (Aga Khan) one of the founders and first president of All India Muslim League? Is he and Khadim Hussain Rizvi equal now, as this author wishes his readers to believe ........ and then juggling with the words maligns Pakistan Army's peaceful role and concludes that we need a secularism rope to end our problems. Bravo .........

    Such people and such authors are dishonest, ignorant and disconnected ........... they don't know a shiz about the problem and the ground realities and just wish to implement a solution where they could uninterruptedly enjoy their fantasies in public which they right now do in their privacy. Such bigots should be identified and next time any Khadim stages a sit in these hypocrites should be given a stage opposite to Khadim's sit in and then we will see how much water they have in their balls.

    They wanted a bloodshed, chaos, anarchy to promote their secular state agenda .......... sorry it didn't happen and they were left disappointed, now like vultures they are feeding on the dead corpse of that protest. Why don't they drown in their own shame if they have any left ...........

    They may get Khadim Hussain Rizvis out of the way but their ignorant souls would fail all their logic in front of many Pakistanis who have started digging the true message of Islam. They won't be able to defeat the argument some of us Pakistanis hold against Secularism, because anyone who has little knowledge of true Islam knows in case of a country like Pakistan Islamic state is far better for both majority and minority than a secular state ... .

    Sadly both these abusive Khadims and these fake liberals are hurdles and problems that spread confusion in our country. The earlier would want me beheaded for my views and this later would soon resort to abuses.

    The problem with Khadim Hussain Rizvis is that they are neck deep into man written history and narratives, their knowledge of Islam is shallow, their understanding of message of Islam is purely distorted and their conduct is 180 degree opposite of Messenger Peace be upon him, His companions and the ones who followed them in early ages. Hence the reply of these Khadims is full of abuses and deprived of any logic. And sadly these Khadims are treated as saviors and holy warriors by gullible masses.

    I hope you won't mind my out of order outburst ......... as I said in the past its easier to talk to a Non Muslim than to a Muslim.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Any Pakistani who thinks he is a Muslim and keeps criticizing Objective resolutions and keeps parroting secular state secular state day in day out ....... should decide once and forever whether he wishes to believe in ALLAH and Quran or he wishes to be an atheist. Personally I want myself to have firm belief in ALLAH and Quran that's why I believe in ALLAH's promise in Verse 55 in Surah e Noor (Chapter 24) and want Pakistan to be an Islamic state that is opposite of theocracy it is now or a secular state that some want it to be.

    "Allah has promised those of you who believe and do good deeds that He will most surely make them vicegerent in the earth as He made their ancestors before them, and that He will establish for them their religion, the one which He has chosen for them, and that He will change their present state of fear into peace and security. Let them worship Me Alone and not to commit shirk with Me; and if anyone rejects faith after this, it is they who are the transgressors." 24:55

    Read carefully and see if being a Muslim, you can deny clear concept of Islamic state given in Quran. There is your answer to why Pakistan (as Jinnah, Iqbal, Sultan Muhammad Shah etc) wanted, cannot be separated from Islam. Read and understand why Messenger Peace be upon him migrated / traveled to Madina and established a state there. And see if you still believe that Islam as a Deen is someone's private matter.

    First point of objective resolution .........

    1. Sovereignty over the entire universe belongs to Allah Almighty alone and the authority which He has delegated to the state of Pakistan, through its people for being exercised within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust.[2]
    A non Muslim can disagree with this (no problems) but can a Muslim criticize and deny this?

    I am so done with this duplicity. Decide once and get done with it. No wonder you lot get zombified again and again by Khadims and Fake secular.
     
  4. Kaptaan

    Kaptaan PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    [​IMG]

    06 DECThe Faizabad Phenomenon and Army


    People view the recent Faizabad fracas as an ugly event; an aberration that locked down the Capital City. The citizens of Islamabad were inconvenienced. They wanted the government to relieve them of their misery – nay, they demanded; the roads be cleared and the mullahs be sent packing. It did not matter to most how this was to be done but that it be done. No one really wanted to dirty their hands dealing with this ruckus, it was as if it was somebody else’s problem yet it was affecting everyone else. Its resolution became talk of town, the search was on for a quick fix, the courts took suo-moto notice and preachers galore, of every colour and every disposition, were called in to reason with the unreasonable. Finally the Army was called in; they did what they thought was best. The roads were cleared, no shots were fired, the mullahs sent back.

    Pakistan has time and again been subjected to ideological crisis, its people are obsessed with saving Islam. Even King Farouk of Egypt was led to state that it seems Islam was born in Pakistan in 1947. The people of Pakistan talk of how ‘we conquered Spain’, deriving an association with history through the commonality of ideology and confusing it with nationality. We incite violence in the name of religion almost every day. We take offence to real or perceived insults at the drop of a pin and regardless where it occurred, go to the street to dismantle our own country in wanton rage. Governments have been found wanting in containing and controlling the genie that they let loose by morphing and distorting their own constitution over and over again and making it into an instrument of persecution and discrimination. Now we cannot differentiate between a sin and a crime anymore as our very religion has been hijacked by the unscrupulous who twist it and turn it, while society prances behind these divines, hooting encouragement as they bay for blood. Reason is sacrificed at the altar of emotion, as accusations born of rumour take on a life of their own; lynching becomes the norm and justice is dispensed by murdering our own governor. The government of the time did not even have the courage to say a prayer for their own governor in the parliament. This was the environment in which the Army was called in to save the government from its own machinations. It was a judgement call; should they have tried to address the much larger and real issue of a radical society or then diffuse what was an obviously difficult situation. They sensibly chose the latter.

    Yet everyone was up in arms. A deal had been made, the mullahs had been appeased; there was disappointment that there had been no hell, fire or fury. Some demanded F 16s bombings like in FATA – why not, after all if it can happen there why not here. People fail to comprehend that even in FATA, where there was an organised armed resistance, there was no military solution. The military only creates an environment for the government to apply itself; it cannot shoot the government into relevance; that is for the government itself to manage. Faizabad was not about 2500 protesters as much as establishing the government’s moral writ after they lost credibility and allowed dissatisfaction to spread nationwide. The Army could not have done that even if it had killed every single protester in Faizabad. The Justice of Islamabad High Court was not satisfied, he was the same justice who earlier had been very upset with the violent clearance of Lal Masjid, now he was upset with the peaceful resolution at Faizabad. I suppose one cannot please some regardless of what one may do but it indicates what the Army had to deal with – damned if you do, damned if you don’t!

    Conclusions are now broadcasted by our experts. Extremism has been given a boost, The Economist says Pakistan Army is undermining the Civil Government, Babar Sattar, a PMLn lawyer, calls it a reign of terror. Well we have seen these thing before: the Ahmadia riots of 1956 and Justice Munir Report on which no action was taken and the question of who is a Muslim and who is not, remained unanswered. Then Bhutto’s appeasement of the mullahs in declaring Friday as a holiday, nationwide prohibition and declaring Ahmadis as non-muslims, was done to save his own skin; it did not work. Zia’s reign of misguided righteousness that corrupted society rather than make them any holier resonates in the intolerance and extremism we witness even today. Handing over Swat to Sufi Muhammad is another aberration that we have survived where there is a parallel constitution that is technically still in vogue. Does anyone have the courage to throw that out? So having looked into the stuff we are made of and the people that we are, no, there is no indication of extremism or intolerance on the rise; it’s simply business as usual. There is no evidence that the State will be taken over by the Mullahs, they already dictate policies. Why don’t these same liberals talk of amending the constitution and separating religion from politics? Give religion the much greater status of a divine order rather allowing bigoted, uneducated people an opportunity to exploit it for personal pelf and privilege. What happened at Faizabad was a clear indication of no visible government and to expect the Army to fire fight every crisis that occurs due to the gerrymandering of a government that is totally lacking in capacity and capability, is being unfair. However, if that really is the way to go, then why be selective, let’s start with Model Town killings and let the Army resolve that first through military courts established on the insistence and direction of this parliament.

    We, in Pakistan are incapable of regulating our traffic, we cannot manage our own garbage, we steal utilities, we litter everywhere, every office is dysfunctional, every institution irrelevant and yet we thing that there is a will and design to put the mullah in his place. In Pakistan anyone with a tin-can and a loud-speaker standing by the road can collect funds from this same fawning uneducated public through the former and spew hatred through the same public with the latter. We are good at making laws; NACTA and NAP are two such illustrations of slogans without substance. We have not been able to even enact the Madrassa reforms, we instead fund them by government initiatives, misusing the tax payers’ money and then we expect that by some miracle the mullah will be contained. We ourselves cultivate and organize various religious groups as part of the political process with each political party having its own nuisance groups. Yet here we want to pluck out one issue of the many issues that plague our lives, the one that is directly a glaring consequence of poor governance and want the Army to correct it but ignore everything else that had a role in causing it.

    With all these issues, yet it is widely rumoured that we have a political government with a functional democracy, and if there is one and it is democratic, then, in the case of the Faizabad situation, it’s they who broke it, it is for them to fix it – politically or democratically, however they deem best. One is at pain to convince people to look at the larger picture, Faizabad is not an event; it is a phenomenon. The phenomenon is one where there is literally no application of law, no regulation and no management. Our government is neither political nor democratic, according to the Supreme Court, it is a gang of crooks driven by the rules of the mafia. The Constitution is a document to eloquently quote from but only where it suits the one quoting from it. It has no practical implication where society, the people or the State come into the equation; in fact it is irrelevant. This is the consequence of continuing to live with this aberration we continue to call a system of governance. We clash our cymbals in celebration of democracy where democracy has remained a mere label without any practical manifestation. In fact, religion and democracy in Pakistan have become a racket to exploit the State, its people and society. How does one explain the aberration of Maulana Diesel, chairman of the Kashmir Committee or maulvi Burqa, head honcho of Lal Masjid, both living off the State’s largesse and for doing nothing, the only thing they do best? Which country in the world allows such shameless people to live off the land and for no reasonable purpose or useful function? Where do people anywhere in the world allow a clown with a telescope loose on its people to decide their schedules for celebrations and events and then pay him for his troubles? Yet we as a society, a public and as citizens take all this in seriously and with solemn acceptance!! It is now for the people to decide, if this is what they want, then there will be many more Faizabads, in different ways and in different colours but it will not be because of extremism and intolerance but more on account of the total absence of governance. So it is amusing to see the chattering classes give their intelligent but aimless opinions on the micro-management issues of Faizabad, of what all happened and what did not, yet miss the huge elephant that is prancing before them; THERE IS NO GOVERNMENT.

    If the Army had moved in under article 245, shot at the people and established order at Faizabad, yes, there may have been some who would have been convinced and others even happy but governance would not have been restored just as it is not restored even now, nor will it be in the future, if matters remain as they are. This will get worse by the day – anarchy, lynching, murder and exploitation of society. Army action would not have made it better but worse because the solution was never in enforcement of article 245 or military action. The solution squarely lay in NACTA, NAP, social de-radicalisation and reasonable Governance. Unless we recover our institutions and discover a government that has the political will and the moral capacity to act when it should, it will only get worse. This is what should be recognised by all instead of looking for every other reason under the sun for our woes; please recognise the reality of the situation – the Army is not Pakistan’s enemy, it’s your Army. As was famously said, you will always have an Army, if it’s not your own, it will be someone else’s.


    [​IMG]

    Lt. General Tariq Khan (Retired)
    Advisor & Senior Analyst at CommandEleven
    Lt. General Tariq Khan (Retired), an erudite general from Pakistan's Armored Corps and a decorated War Veteran, is an expert on critical issues related to Terrorism & Insurgencies. General Tariq Khan during the Battle of Bajaur, transformed and re-shaped Frontier Corps into a relentless fighting force and raised FC's own special forces popularly known as SOG. Commanded and led major operations in FATA from the frontline, his model on counter-insurgency is still applied to this day.

    https://www.commandeleven.com/regions/pakistan/the-faizabad-phenomenon-and-army/

    @Joe Shearer @KediKesenFare @AndrewJin

    I have lot of respect for Lt.Gen Tariq. He saw the upgrading of FC and operations againsat terrorists in FATA.

     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017 at 8:11 PM
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  5. Joe Shearer

    Joe Shearer PROFESSIONAL

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    What was the lie? Or was it just that his conclusions did not suit your world-view?

    @Kaptaan

    Read both your posts with relish and appreciation!

    Who is this general in the blue shirt? He makes total sense; a very fine mind. What's he doing in the Army?

    @I.R.A

    Rest easy, dear Sir; I understand your emotional stand on the subject, but we were talking about two different things.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017 at 8:50 PM
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  6. El Sidd

    El Sidd ELITE MEMBER

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    I actually voiced my concern over Bitcoin and though it was not a fatwa but was a clear statement that this is a tool for economic terrorism aka corruption. No one gives a damn when easy bucks are to be made.

    stick to preaching to your own kind Sire..... the secular wave died with Bin Laden in 2011 in Pakistan.

    if you cannot comprehend or understand what Pakistan is or represents. do not bother indulging in its internal discussions.

    Every god damn arab persian egyptian afghani uzbek wants to teach the poor Pakistanis on how to run their country.

    try and experiment will you. put Turkey instead of Pakistan and then see how long you are allowed to roam freely on the streets of Corum hugging a Teddy bear from Sivas while munching on Borek from Gaziantep sipping Uldag
     
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  7. Syed.Ali.Haider

    Syed.Ali.Haider ELITE MEMBER

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    So who is charged with "discovering" such a government, by law, and in reality? Therein hides Pakistan's curse.
     
  8. El Sidd

    El Sidd ELITE MEMBER

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    Politicians

    Self loathing incompetent politicians.

    Angrez ki haddi 150 saal se choosne wale chand khandaan
     
  9. Joe Shearer

    Joe Shearer PROFESSIONAL

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    My dear Sir,

    I write this with affection; do not rebuff it in your annoyance that your vision, shared with many others, no doubt, of the role of the state of Pakistan, was either denied or diminished by my remarks. It was not about your vision at all, nor about your aspirations for your country, as it exists today.

    It was about the gallant fight, against all odds, put up by Jinnah, and his articulation of the need, ultimately, due to circumstances that belong to a detailed analysis of the minute elements of historical narrative, who said what to whom, when, and what happened because of that, for a separate dominion, that turned out to be the Dominion of Pakistan. When anyone speaks of that specific articulation, it does not take into account what you have stated above, simply because it was based on other elements; it was based on providing a sanctuary for Muslims, where their culture and practices would not be overwhelmed by a crushing majority of others. That does not amount to a design to create an Islamic state.

    That wish was superimposed by a political and religious faction that had opposed Pakistan right through, and had, indeed, sided with the Congress, and had a senior leader well placed within the Congress, right through the independence struggle and beyond, lasting well into the period of existence of free India, as a Congress leader of great repute, and later, as a central minister with charge of critical parts of the portfolios available. It was that faction that was based on the beliefs and tenets of Deoband Seminary, and it was that faction whose prominent personality, entering Pakistan a significant period of time AFTER the Dominion had been formed, proving him and his faction totally wrong in their predictions and dismal prophecies, encouraged the movement against the Ahmadis. An action for which he was convicted and condemned to death, and reprieved only by the political decision of some leaders.

    Before you lose your temper at a mere non-Muslim, a pagan, taking liberties with the basics of the state of Pakistan, do please reflect that these matters are not speculative, and I have made up not one single word; everything that I have said is a matter of record.

    If you and those with your way of thinking wish to see a greater adherence to Islamic tenets, that is entirely your wish, and all must wish you well in striving to make it happen. But that there is a struggle for dominance between that desire and another, a secular one, is undeniable; the article is about the justification for the other side, and nobody expects you to like it, or even legitimise it. To deny it is not right, however.

    Specifically, I do not understand how Jinnah is equated to Khadim Rizvi; on the contrary. Nor do I understand how the Aga Khan is equated to Rizvi. Where did you get these bizarre equations, that seem to be the opposite of what is stated? The Pakistan Army failed Pakistan at a critical moment, by not neutralising Rizvi, just as on an earlier occasion, it failed to complete the suppression of another bunch of malcontents from the Red Mosque. Pretending that disobedience to the civil government was actually a healthy thing strikes at the root of your nation; the Army was not created to run the government or to take decisions on its behalf, nor even to take up the task of creating an Islamic state, but to defend the country against external enemies.

    At the end, you are preaching a third way, and I am troubled to think that you are so far isolated in doing so. As you yourself said, one of the existing two factions would probably behead you, if they could; the others may abuse you, although I doubt it.

    In either case, it is appropriate for you to discuss it in the open forum with @Kaptaan, as the only person frank and outspoken enough to place reasoned arguments in front of you in opposition to your own arguments. We need not equate him to YLH; @Kaptaan has proved his patriotism a thousand times over on this forum, and it is only fair to take him at face value.

    Please forgive my reiteration; it is born out of genuine goodwill, and if you wish to berate me for anything that I have said above, I will accept such a reaction with good humour and absolute absence of illwill. But deny what I see to be right I will not. It is too late a stage of life for me to dissemble to ward off trouble.
     
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  10. Kaptaan

    Kaptaan PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    Yes

    Agreed 100%


    Give me proof for the bold red. If you do I will stick my hand down my mouth and pull it out out of my a*ss. Okay?





    @Joe Shearer watch the "proof" that will be tendered.


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017 at 6:03 AM
  11. Joe Shearer

    Joe Shearer PROFESSIONAL

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    I know this will be good, but I'm almost scared!

    [​IMG]
     
  12. I.R.A

    I.R.A SENIOR MEMBER

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    I am all easy sir ........... let me explain and ask some questions .......... before I go on to measuring a&& thing, to see if it will be wide enough to pass a hand through it. Disgusting ..... but as I told you these fake disconnected secular will be abusive .......... I hope one of my arguments stands proven.

    Sir, please for goodness sake, what culture and what practices? Don't you keep reading the arguments that Indian and Pakistanis are two same people divided by borders? If by culture and practices you mean that Muslims have mosques and they fast during Ramazan ...... so why this need of separate land didn't appeal the Mullah that sided with congress?

    When I mentioned that Messenger Peace be upon him migrated to Madina ...... the main purpose of that migration was to establish a state where Quranic system can be implemented with full freedom and people could think and make their free choice without anyone exploitation and influence. That is why a separate land is needed to afford humans a free environment where they can think on their own and make their decision on their own ..... as Quran wants it to be. The basic Quranic concept has always remained that a human should be so free of exploitation and others influence that he is not forced into submission ...... mentioned in Quran .... "There is no compulsion in deen" ... "You cannot force everyone to be Muslim if ALLAH wanted every human on this Earth would have been Muslim". An Islamic state is a pure Quranic state you cannot confuse it with a theocracy, there is a hell of difference between the two and my Pakistan currently isn't the Islamic state, it is far away from it.

    This concept of separate land to implement their system is the reason for Israel and Rabwah.

    You are right when you say that it was based on providing a sanctuary to Muslims but that wasn't the only goal. From there on things were to progress in direction where Quran's system was to be implemented which sadly didn't happen. You must have heard Pakistanis equating founding of Pakistan with that of Madina ..... this equating Pakistan with Madina wasn't based on getting a land to practice usual traditional conservative narratives only, otherwise India has mosques too, Indian Muslims go for hajj too, they fast during Ramazan too.

    How did Jinnah counter the religious faction then? That religious faction would have held greater influence on British India's Muslims compared to a suited booted Jinnah? How did he manage to win against their religious propaganda? Why don't Pakistanis search for this answer? What was different that he did to appeal to Muslims? How did he manage to convince millions to leave their home and head for new place, helpless and homeless?

    Most of us look at one particular phase of Iqbal and Jinnah's life and keep focusing on it to prove our point, we tend to disagree with the idea that, that a man may have revisited his beliefs and thoughts and accepted a better more logical and reasonable ideology. Personally for me both these gents got to understand the real message and meaning of Islam and Quran in their last phase of life, and spent their energies to accomplish their common goal in light of their final understanding and belief.

    I have no problem with your beliefs, you can be bearded Mullah, a pagan, an Atheist or a Martian ..... I will judge for how honest your intentions are and whether you are man of your word or not. Nothing personal here.... we keep learning and evolving.

    I have a solid reason. To call intellectual dishonesty as what it is. I am sorry if I didn't get mislead by this propaganda piece ........ please see my response below to understand my point of view.


    The opening paragraph of this propaganda piece starts by proving how Khadim tried benefiting from religious profiteering ........... and then the author goes on to explain that the founders of Pakistan used this same religious profiteering to get Pakistan.

    Now dear sir please do educate me if you see any resemblance in appearance, intellect and beliefs of Khadim and these following gents

    • Sultan Muhammad Shah
    • Iqbal
    • Jinnah
    Did my ignorant self miss something written in white fonts?

    Forget the appearance and difference of beliefs and do tell me how Mullahs supporting congress failed to benefit from this religious profiteering, how did they fail to stop these gents and many like them from achieving a separate land? Despite the fact that they should have more influence on a Muslim conservative majority ..... why did they fail?

    Khadims have proven their intolerance again and again ....... if you want to doubt you can afford to, but I live amongst them and I know it better.

    Fake disconnected secular and liberals ......... please read this quote below and tell me you don't find it abusive.


    You do know that your a&& hole is to sh*t only, and not for fisting stunts? You shouldn't have made it personal, but

    Anyways its your a&&hole ....... your choice I have no problems with that, but before proceeding into serious argument, please bring me a credible guarantor who would make sure to capture video evidence of this stunt .......

    I don't trust you, you are the same person who had announced "I would leave this forum if Raheel Shareef becomes head of the Muslim countries alliance" ....... RS is the head and here I am engaging in a useless argument (for the time being) with you on this forum.


    Once you have satisfied me that you won't back out this time and everything will get recorded to prove that you are man of your word ...... I will engage with you on serious note ..... starting point would be us declaring our beliefs openly here in public ........ so the readers know where we are coming from and I am aware of what to bring to the argument table and what not. I am not doubting your faith nor I have any issues with it, but I have read people here who declare you an atheist, so I would like to read your word, its important for serious discussion.

    @Khafee @H!TchHiker please be my witness.
     
  13. Kaptaan

    Kaptaan PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    @I.R.A I am having difficulty understanding your posts but will do best to reply to them. So here is replies to what I think you said.

    (1) ML did use "religious profiteering" to get the state of Pakistan. I don't find anything wrong with that. Ends justify the means sometimes. National Front for the Liberation of Algeria used violence, guns, bombs and terrorism as a means to boot out the French. But that does not mean NFL believed in giving carte blanche to terrorism and guns. After the French were kicked out violence ceased, guns become regulated and bombs were secured by the state. In the same way ML and Pakistani state should have banned religious profiteering after 1947. But it failed to do which terrible consequences.

    (2) Jinnah was able to do what he did unlike the Mullahs for a reason. He was a Western educated man who had lived in the West for protracted period of time and was product of Western education system. He understood how the modern world works. He used Western concepts to get Pakistan but to rally the ignorant locals he was forced to use religious profiteering. Otherwise the gap between him and the average member of the mass of people was too much. They had no comon frame of referance.

    (3) The Mullahs can only destroy. Their only value is nuisence. They will always be caught in their own sectarian webs. Forever all claiming to be god's viceregents and then fighting over some theological diferance.

    (4) Gen. Raheel position insofar as I can ascertain is a sinecure post. Maybe @Khafee has more information or even @Saif al-Arab who are both in better position then you or I to give more info. I can't remember exactly what I said but it was something along the lines that "Gen. RS must command a multi-nation force including having real command over Arab soldiers". From what I can tell he does not have active command but is just a "a senior advisor".


    (5) As to my faith I ask you not to question it. As much as I will not question you. I will not allow a mere mortal man question a matter that is between me and the almighty.

    Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. Qur'an 109:1-6 ...


    (6) You still have not given me proof for this -


    Please tender me some type of evidence or proof that confirms god has indeed delegated to Pakistan in 1949 something it has not done to Afghanistan, Iran, Saudia Arabia etc etc. May I see the certificate please?


    [​IMG]
     
  14. SoulSpokesman

    SoulSpokesman FULL MEMBER

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    @Joe Shearer

    Dada,

    This is a genie released from the bottle by Mohandas Gandhi, whom I otherwise respect and admire.

    Wonderful post but I wish you had written this part as "the genie released from the bottle by MK Gandhi, whom even otherwise I greatly despise and detest"

    Regards

    PS: It is with great difficulty that I have restrained myself from spelling that evil person's name the way I usually do
     
  15. Joe Shearer

    Joe Shearer PROFESSIONAL

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    Let us agree to disagree. What Gandhi did was horrific enough without descending to coarse invective.