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Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

Which rifle should win the competition?

  • FN-SCAR-H

    Votes: 231 43.3%
  • Beretta ARX-200

    Votes: 59 11.1%
  • CZ-806 Bren2

    Votes: 113 21.2%
  • Kalashnikov AK-103

    Votes: 116 21.8%
  • Zavasta M21

    Votes: 15 2.8%

  • Total voters
    533

iLION12345_1

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I agree with everything you said - so wondering what parts in my writeup you disagreed with. Would love to get your thoughts.
If the cycling in of captured weapons is where you disagree, I can shed how it is done.
I decided not to take that further as the thread is not relevant to the topic, however that was not the disagreement. While not true in the army, in the FC the use of captured weapons, especially American ones smuggled in from Afghanistan was very common (and it doesn’t stop at weapons). However it has naturally gone down with the decrease in smuggling, though is still a present issue And definitely needs to be addressed.

My other disagreement was with the comment about Colonels and below and brigadiers and above being some sort of massive difference, the PA is a big place, there will be some bad nuts, but such a “two-worlds” thing is certainly not commonplace. I could go into the details but trust me it would get very long, the only thing I’ll say is, we often overestimate how much of a “badmash” the average Brigadier and above officer feels or thinks he is. They don’t just suddenly change like that.

As for conditions being different in different regions, that is fact, but I don’t see how it’s surprising. That’s like saying the US troops based in Washington have it easier than the US troops based in Afghanistan.…well…yes. They do. Not all of Pakistan is as developed and not every side has the same level of threats, while ideally we would provide the same facilities to every soldier everywhere, we just don’t have the money, it’s not just a thing in the military. As an example, government doctors have mandatory service years in rural areas, where they have significantly less facilities, do significantly more and harder work and for the same pay. But they are signing up for this when they take the job. And this is exactly why they are rotated so often, to cities, to borders, to all sorts of terrains, to safety and to danger. In an ideal world, where we had enough money and no enemies, we could make sure all our soldiers everywhere were kept safe and secure, and even now we should try out hardest for that.

I cannot however speak for the rangers and the FC, they are under the ministry of interior and are supposed to serve closer to their homes, but unfair advantages are used in this regard.

All that being said, the lack of basic equipment that is costing the lives of our soldiers, especially on the western border, is absolutely inexcusable and very saddening to see. No matter who’s responsible for it. Especially In the case of the FC.
 
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iLION12345_1

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My understanding is the transition to SMG has been going on for some time. Though my views were that G3 remained the central weapon of choice in battle formations (mechanized and armor supported infantry), with a few SMGs peppered around. Whereas pure infantry formations (not full battle formations), COIN ops are front loaded with SMGs and not G3s. I maybe mistaken.
It was certainly like that for a long while, but drastically changed rather recently, take some time to observe videos from full scale exercises that PA has been conducting Post 2016 and look at the firearms. Almost All AKs. And these are conventional military exercises.

Obviously I could be wrong, I don’t know the internal workings of the PA, but this also just makes more sense. An average infantryman, regardless of his role, will perform significantly better with an AK Than a G3, and that’s before we add any sort of accessories to the AK. The G3 is so heavy and the calibre is so big, that just hitting a target in quick succession is hard for the average soldier under a high pressure situation, and that’s not even the soldiers fault, it’s an old weapon with a calibre more suited for specialized roles.

Coming to your concern about the quality of accessories and rifles issues to the soldiers, as I’ve already covered, is it ideal? definitely not, in fact even with our meagre finances it could have been handled much better. But it is still certainly an improvement over whatever we had going on in the past, I‘m really hoping the military gets its act together and starts standardizing stuff on a Force-wide level again, it’s not too late to fix it even with what’s already been bought.

but I don’t have an issue with the quality of the things they’re getting, just the variation and how some are getting better stuff than others, but PA has strict enough quality control from my experience that they are definitely not inducting cheap or knock-off stuff on a large scale. And in case such a mistake is made, the repercussions usually follow. Yes, The Type 56-II isn’t the best rifle, it has more quality issues than even the original Type 56-I rifles, those were extremely reliable and well liked, Your usual AK. But the New ones aren’t some sort of cheap knock-offs or dangerously low grade rifles, they’re a cheap upgrade over what was available before, maybe even a stop gap. But it’s not a step back. Just a non-ideal step forward.
When the US army inducted the M-16 for the first time they almost reversed the decision, the gun was that bad. And don’t even get me started I’m the British L85 series that they still use as a standard rifle (or for that matter, the INSAS Across the border).


Interesting story about why the AK is referred to as an SMG by the PA though;
When the war on terror started, the standard SMG and CQB weapon was the MP-5 (while the G3 was the standard rifle, too big for CQB). But after only a short while it was clearly realized that an MP-5 simply wasn’t enough to stop a charging Extremist with body armor who’s also high on 4 different kinds of drugs. That’s when they started buying any and every type of AK (Mainly Type 56-I) they could find to quickly fill the gaps. As it was replacing an SMG, the AK for the designation of an SMG, even though it’s obviously not one.

At least now with the new AKs, only two types are being inducted, so there is some increase in the level of standardization, and The number of accessories that have become standard issue has thankfully increased a lot. Even in large scale exercises we can often see Soldiers the basic accessories, but damn, so much is left to be desired. Nothing is done to perfection anywhere in this country, I guess we just hold the armed forces to a much higher standard so we expect it from at least them.
 
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akramishaqkhan

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It was certainly like that for a long while, but drastically changed rather recently, take some time to observe videos from full scale exercises that PA has been conducting Post 2016 and look at the firearms. Almost All AKs. And these are conventional military exercises.

Obviously I could be wrong, I don’t know the internal workings of the PA, but this also just makes more sense. An average infantryman, regardless of his role, will perform significantly better with an AK Than a G3, and that’s before we add any sort of accessories to the AK. The G3 is so heavy and the calibre is so big, that just hitting a target in quick succession is hard for the average soldier under a high pressure situation, and that’s not even the soldiers fault, it’s an old weapon with a calibre more suited for specialized roles.

Coming to your concern about the quality of accessories and rifles issues to the soldiers, as I’ve already covered, is it ideal? definitely not, in fact even with our meagre finances it could have been handled much better. But it is still certainly an improvement over whatever we had going on in the past, I‘m really hoping the military gets its act together and starts standardizing stuff on a Force-wide level again, it’s not too late to fix it even with what’s already been bought.

but I don’t have an issue with the quality of the things they’re getting, just the variation and how some are getting better stuff than others, but PA has strict enough quality control from my experience that they are definitely not inducting cheap or knock-off stuff on a large scale. And in case such a mistake is made, the repercussions usually follow. Yes, The Type 56-II isn’t the best rifle, it has more quality issues than even the original Type 56-I rifles, those were extremely reliable and well liked, Your usual AK. But the New ones aren’t some sort of cheap knock-offs or dangerously low grade rifles, they’re a cheap upgrade over what was available before, maybe even a stop gap. But it’s not a step back. Just a non-ideal step forward.
When the US army inducted the M-16 for the first time they almost reversed the decision, the gun was that bad. And don’t even get me started I’m the British L85 series that they still use as a standard rifle (or for that matter, the INSAS Across the border).


Interesting story about why the AK is referred to as an SMG by the PA though;
When the war on terror started, the standard SMG and CQB weapon was the MP-5 (while the G3 was the standard rifle, too big for CQB). But only after a short while it was clearly realized that an MP-5 simply wasn’t enough to stop a charging Extremist with body armor who’s also high on 4 different kinds of drugs. That’s when they started buying any and every type of AK they could find ti quickly fill the gaps. As it was replacing an SMG, the AK for the designation of an SMG, even though it’s obviously not one.

At least now with the new AKs, only two types are being inducted, so there is some increase in the level of standardization, and The number of accessories that have become standard issue has thankfully increased a lot. Even in large scale exercises we can often see Soldiers the basic accessories, but damn, so much is left to be desired. Nothing is done to perfection anywhere in this country, I guess we just hold the armed forces to a much higher standard so we expect it from at least them.
Thanks for the detailed response. I agree with all your arguments on this topic. Only part I guess we'll agree to disagree is the NCO JCO difference and the gap growth at single star and above. I also agree that not all operating areas are the same. Some more developed than others. But I feel as a fighting unit there has to be a baseline. That baseline should include comms, rations, water, and few additional incidental logistics. These need to operate off a baseline. I find this baseline has too many variances in the Pakistani Army. Where in one case your fighting units are well stocked, while in others something as basic as water becomes a rare commodity. BTW you'll find these variance all the way up to the Corp level as well, something well documented through GHQs own analysis of war fighting state of our Corps. 5th Corp being a notorious under-performer. This could be a function of lack of logistic focus in PA (though improved in large measure from earlier years), but I think irks me when I think of the NCO fighting soldier. Officers are critical but at the hyper local tactical level, the NCO unit with their Subedaar/Havaldaar element is the basic DNA of the fighting unit. Making this unit a highly functioning element will pay dividends in war fighting.
 

akramishaqkhan

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It was certainly like that for a long while, but drastically changed rather recently, take some time to observe videos from full scale exercises that PA has been conducting Post 2016 and look at the firearms. Almost All AKs. And these are conventional military exercises.

Obviously I could be wrong, I don’t know the internal workings of the PA, but this also just makes more sense. An average infantryman, regardless of his role, will perform significantly better with an AK Than a G3, and that’s before we add any sort of accessories to the AK. The G3 is so heavy and the calibre is so big, that just hitting a target in quick succession is hard for the average soldier under a high pressure situation, and that’s not even the soldiers fault, it’s an old weapon with a calibre more suited for specialized roles.

Coming to your concern about the quality of accessories and rifles issues to the soldiers, as I’ve already covered, is it ideal? definitely not, in fact even with our meagre finances it could have been handled much better. But it is still certainly an improvement over whatever we had going on in the past, I‘m really hoping the military gets its act together and starts standardizing stuff on a Force-wide level again, it’s not too late to fix it even with what’s already been bought.

but I don’t have an issue with the quality of the things they’re getting, just the variation and how some are getting better stuff than others, but PA has strict enough quality control from my experience that they are definitely not inducting cheap or knock-off stuff on a large scale. And in case such a mistake is made, the repercussions usually follow. Yes, The Type 56-II isn’t the best rifle, it has more quality issues than even the original Type 56-I rifles, those were extremely reliable and well liked, Your usual AK. But the New ones aren’t some sort of cheap knock-offs or dangerously low grade rifles, they’re a cheap upgrade over what was available before, maybe even a stop gap. But it’s not a step back. Just a non-ideal step forward.
When the US army inducted the M-16 for the first time they almost reversed the decision, the gun was that bad. And don’t even get me started I’m the British L85 series that they still use as a standard rifle (or for that matter, the INSAS Across the border).


Interesting story about why the AK is referred to as an SMG by the PA though;
When the war on terror started, the standard SMG and CQB weapon was the MP-5 (while the G3 was the standard rifle, too big for CQB). But after only a short while it was clearly realized that an MP-5 simply wasn’t enough to stop a charging Extremist with body armor who’s also high on 4 different kinds of drugs. That’s when they started buying any and every type of AK (Mainly Type 56-I) they could find to quickly fill the gaps. As it was replacing an SMG, the AK for the designation of an SMG, even though it’s obviously not one.

At least now with the new AKs, only two types are being inducted, so there is some increase in the level of standardization, and The number of accessories that have become standard issue has thankfully increased a lot. Even in large scale exercises we can often see Soldiers the basic accessories, but damn, so much is left to be desired. Nothing is done to perfection anywhere in this country, I guess we just hold the armed forces to a much higher standard so we expect it from at least them.
BTW the one weapon I love is the Mauser LMG. What a weapon and still going strong even after so many years. Freaking Germans and their handiwork.
 

Tomcats

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@iLION12345_1 Though genuine question, how feasible would've a modified G-3 akin to the Swedish and Norwegians be as a 'replacement'/stopgap. I understand Pak definitely made a lot of modified versions but what i don't understand is what was the issue that seems to have prevented it from being adopted en masse. Caliber wise the round is quite large, however, with the proliferation of higher quality/better body armor it would make sense, NATO i believe is also perhaps deciding to upgrade from 556 i think. It's length and butt stock leaves a lot to be desired on the original G3 but surely some modifications could've improved such ergonomics such that it would be less unwieldy. Your thoughts?
 

iLION12345_1

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@iLION12345_1 Though genuine question, how feasible would've a modified G-3 akin to the Swedish and Norwegians be as a 'replacement'/stopgap. I understand Pak definitely made a lot of modified versions but what i don't understand is what was the issue that seems to have prevented it from being adopted en masse. Caliber wise the round is quite large, however, with the proliferation of higher quality/better body armor it would make sense, NATO i believe is also perhaps deciding to upgrade from 556 i think. It's length and butt stock leaves a lot to be desired on the original G3 but surely some modifications could've improved such ergonomics such that it would be less unwieldy. Your thoughts?
POF makes local modernization kits for the G3, and they’re not that bad either, the issue is that such kits cost about the same as a new rifle, so it doesn’t make much sense to get them, especially when they cannot Adress some of the most basic issues with the rifle, like it’s recoil, size and calibre. They’re also not as thorough as some of the kits made in the west, and even if we were to purchase those western ones, the basic issue remains.

it made sense for the Swedes and Norwegians as they have a small amount of rifles and a large amount of money. We have A massive amount of rifles and not the same kind of economic situation, we have to go with the most cost effective option, and this sadly wasn’t it, however it would be viable for other countries, as it was for the Scandinavian countries.
 

spectregunship

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it is part of a lot modified back in 2014 to 2016... these had a Picatinny Rail at top & handguard with a foregrip, muzzle brake, adjustable buttstock.
It was an experimental venture but was discontinued...weapon weight increased by a little over half a kilo besides the muzzle brake issues...many units still field these experimental ones as part of the inventory..
 

DESERT FIGHTER

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Well let’s hope it makes it off the TV screens and into Soldiers’ hands quickly then, it could very well be the Type 56-IIM replacement, I’ve just not seen it in army hands outside this drama so far.
Neither have I..but seems even police is using them.
Thats alot of guns wonder if they will produce them.. PK21 aka 103 aka VKS100?
 

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