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Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

Which rifle should win the competition?

  • FN-SCAR-H

    Votes: 235 43.0%
  • Beretta ARX-200

    Votes: 59 10.8%
  • CZ-806 Bren2

    Votes: 115 21.1%
  • Kalashnikov AK-103

    Votes: 122 22.3%
  • Zavasta M21

    Votes: 16 2.9%

  • Total voters
    546

Zarvan

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To be completely honest, the decision we needed was already made, the people in this thread are waiting for the wrong thing. I’m not sure how no one else has noticed such an obvious thing.

The way I see it, we won’t be seeing a G3 replacement, because the AK series has replaced the G3 as the standard weapon of the PA, and im glad it has. The 7.62x51 calibre of the G3 is highly unsuited for normal combat in the hands of a normal soldier. The calibre is way too big, and PA thankfully realized this in the trials.

That’s why there is absolutely no urgency to replace the G3. On the other side, PA has already started modernizing it’s AKs. Wether it be modernizing older ones with new polymer furniture, simply adding optics, grips and other attachments, or purchasing AK-103Ms (soon to come in my opinion).

The most we will see as a G3 replacement is a specialized rifle that may be issued to some soldiers in dedicated “rifleman” roles. This rifle may be purchased in small numbers. Apart from this, we will not see any new large-scale firearm induction into the PA. It simply doesn’t make sense to equip every soldier with a 7.62x51 calibre rifle due to its high recoil And the weight of the associated rifle. No other military uses it as a standard calibre for a reason.

Bottom line Is; G3 has been replaced by the AK series, and said AK series is already being modernized and we can visibly see that. G3 will be retired sooner or later, it may not get its own replacement at all, at most a small scale replacement for specialized roles, but that’s about it. And this is a good thing.

Maybe this thread should be closed now, and we can move the entirety of the small Arms discussion of PA to another Thread. PAs standard rifles (G3 and Type 56-I) have already been replaced.
When it comes to Pakistan never say never. They can continue to use G3 and Type 56 for years and you can all of a sudden hear about some Rifle deal. This is the way it has been. I myself doesn't see a deal coming but if you look at Czech Republic and their defence industry the only main weapon they produce and we can be interested in are assault rifles so this latest deal we would have to wait to know what it's actually about. Because statement is vague
 

iLION12345_1

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When it comes to Pakistan never say never. They can continue to use G3 and Type 56 for years and you can all of a sudden hear about some Rifle deal. This is the way it has been. I myself doesn't see a deal coming but if you look at Czech Republic and their defence industry the only main weapon they produce and we can be interested in are assault rifles so this latest deal we would have to wait to know what it's actually about. Because statement is vague
The G3 is in very limited use already, and new AKs are constantly coming in. I don’t think we will be seeing G3 for much longer. We‘re buying new AKs for a reason, because we’re going to keep using them (this includes new Type 56-II rifles.)
 

ali_raza

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The G3 is in very limited use already, and new AKs are constantly coming in. I don’t think we will be seeing G3 for much longer. We‘re buying new AKs for a reason, because we’re going to keep using them (this includes new Type 56-II rifles.)
u mean the one we got 100$ a pop
sweet honey thts rifle
 

Keysersoze

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I don't know jack about guns, but NORINCO CS/LR17/18 seem like a pretty good option, it's based on the FN-SCAR. Maybe PA is waiting for the PLA to adopt it and hopefully get a good deal?
Ok well as a Infantryman I'll Say these are the factors that will need to be considered. in no particular order;

Weight of the weapon--The heavier weapons are more tiring to carry and add to the overall burden of the solder.
Accuracy of the weapon--If you can't hit anything whats the point
Ammo-- Lighter ammo or heavier ammo. Lighter ammo (5-56 or similar) has less stopping power but you can carry more (very important) and it has lighter recoil improving accuracy. Heavier ammo has better range and stopping power. Personally more ammo is important to me. It's amazing how fast you can blow through rounds during an engagement.
Durability of the weapon-- Ever heard the term "Soldier proof"? the weapon needs to be able to take the daily abuse of use in the field. The barrels need to be able to take thousands of rounds through them. Easily maintainable in the field and by armourers.

Everything else. Fancy sights are cool and improve accuracy. Night sights are of use as well

finally cost-
To be completely honest, the decision we needed was already made, the people in this thread are waiting for the wrong thing. I’m not sure how no one else has noticed such an obvious thing.

The way I see it, we won’t be seeing a G3 replacement, because the AK series has replaced the G3 as the standard weapon of the PA, and im glad it has. The 7.62x51 calibre of the G3 is highly unsuited for normal combat in the hands of a normal soldier. The calibre is way too big, and PA thankfully realized this in the trials.

That’s why there is absolutely no urgency to replace the G3. On the other side, PA has already started modernizing it’s AKs. Wether it be modernizing older ones with new polymer furniture, simply adding optics, grips and other attachments, or purchasing AK-103Ms (soon to come in my opinion).

The most we will see as a G3 replacement is a specialized rifle that may be issued to some soldiers in dedicated “rifleman” roles. This rifle may be purchased in small numbers. Apart from this, we will not see any new large-scale firearm induction into the PA. It simply doesn’t make sense to equip every soldier with a 7.62x51 calibre rifle due to its high recoil And the weight of the associated rifle. No other military uses it as a standard calibre for a reason.

Bottom line Is; G3 has been replaced by the AK series, and said AK series is already being modernized and we can visibly see that. G3 will be retired sooner or later, it may not get its own replacement at all, at most a small scale replacement for specialized roles, but that’s about it. And this is a good thing.

Maybe this thread should be closed now, and we can move the entirety of the small Arms discussion of PA to another Thread. PAs standard rifles (G3 and Type 56-I) have already been replaced.
Well the HK33 manufactured locally could switch out the G-3's. It would be a smaller calibre but with similar set up to the G3 so training and drills wouldn't have to be drastically altered.
 
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Reddawn

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The G3 is in very limited use already, and new AKs are constantly coming in. I don’t think we will be seeing G3 for much longer. We‘re buying new AKs for a reason, because we’re going to keep using them (this includes new Type 56-II rifles.)

What new AKs are we buying? As far as I know an order was placed for the Ak103 for the FC but that's it.
 

iLION12345_1

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What new AKs are we buying? As far as I know an order was placed for the Ak103 for the FC but that's it.
Check the guns PA soldiers have been carrying, they are either Type 56-II with mounting rails added for sights, optics and such or they are locally modernized AKs (not sure what designation PA uses for them, maybe they are from POF) with the AK-203 style stock and polymer furniture and rails. The old Type 56-I are nowhere to be seen. Both these new AKs are still being procured. G3 is rarely seen too.

FC and other paramilitaries are getting AK-103M first because the MOI is buying it for them, army will likely buy it too, I believe a very small number is already in service.


I have given up on the PA ever replacing their rifles. Terrible planning and execution.
But they already replaced them. A 7.62x51 mm replacement would have been a terrible choice, no matter how fancy the gun, I’m glad they switched to 7.62x39 mm. You can give the average soldier the most expensive SCAR-H and he will still perform better with an Old AK because the calibre is much better suited for normal use.


Modernizing the standard infantry loadout doesn’t just mean getting them shiny new rifles, People keep criticizing PA for that but there is no praise for the fact that Modern optics, grips, radios, earpieces and other kit that we never see in third world armies has been made standard in the PA. These optics and grips help a soldier much more than a slightly newer rifle would. It was absolutely the correct choice to spend money on those instead of buying the most expensive rifles. PA took the middle way and bought average rifles or modernized ones and then equipped them properly with accessories.



Ok well as a Infantryman I'll Say these are the factors that will need to be considered. in no particular order;

Weight of the weapon--The heavier weapons are more tiring to carry and add to the overall burden of the solder.
Accuracy of the weapon--If you can't hit anything whats the point
Ammo-- Lighter ammo or heavier ammo. Lighter ammo (5-56 or similar) has less stopping power but you can carry more (very important) and it has lighter recoil improving accuracy. Heavier ammo has better range and stopping power. Personally more ammo is important to me. It's amazing how fast you can blow through rounds during an engagement.
Durability of the weapon-- Ever heard the term "Soldier proof"? the weapon needs to be able to take the daily abuse of use in the field. The barrels need to be able to take thousands of rounds through them. Easily maintainable in the field and by armourers.

Everything else. Fancy sights are cool and improve accuracy. Night sights are of use as well

finally cost-

Well the HK33 manufactured locally could switch out the G-3's. It would be a smaller calibre but with similar set up to the G3 so training and drills wouldn't have to be drastically altered.
Switching to 5.56 calibre is not an option at all. No matter the gun, It would mean PAs millions of dollars worth of ammunition stocks are useless, we would have to re-tool machines at the factories for the new ammo and also build up the stocks again over several years. We simply don’t have the money for that, it’s not logistically sound.

PA made it clear in the trials that the only two calibers it would be accepting are 7.62x51 or 7.62x39, they made their choice correctly by picking the latter in my opinion.

The mainstream Chinese guns cannot be picked for this same reason, they use calibers we have never even had in Pakistan Before.
 
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Raja Porus

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People keep criticizing PA for that but there is no praise for the fact that Modern optics, grips, radios, earpieces and other kit that we never see in third world armies has been made standard in the PA.
Yep, seeing even regular infantrymen of PA often makes me think that they must be of LCBs. Especially due to optics nad personal protection.
If one looks closely he will be able to see that the infantrymen crossing the water obstacle have grenade launchers and other attachments that too in 2016!
 

Tomcats

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Check the guns PA soldiers have been carrying, they are either Type 56-II with mounting rails added for sights, optics and such or they are locally modernized AKs (not sure what designation PA uses for them, maybe they are from POF) with the AK-203 style stock and polymer furniture and rails. The old Type 56-I are nowhere to be seen. Both these new AKs are still being procured. G3 is rarely seen too.
Yeah seems at least that the modified Type 56 is the norm as far as the LoC is concerned, a picture from earlier this year.
1634032375443.png
 

Invictus01

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One thing is for sure
The Guys incharge of procurement in the Army all need to be sacked
From Inducting Tin Can Commercial Hilux with no roll over cage or a proper LMG mount to accepting thousands of Type 56-II rifles with no rail mounts or any other option to mount an optic least of all a darn handgrip
And that horrible woodenish bakelite stock with absolutely no regard to camouflage or anything of that sort
I swear our men look like they are part of some rag tag afrian militia with these AKs
Utterly disappointing & pathetic to say the least
 

iLION12345_1

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Yeah seems at least that the modified Type 56 is the norm as far as the LoC is concerned, a picture from earlier this year.
View attachment 784164
These and the Modernized AK203 style rifles are both very common. The other one has been seen more often in Combat in FATA and other COIN Ops. Not hard to find photos of it.
Couple of actual AK-103Ms in there too.
B18679C2-B2A4-4E10-8306-2AD404B35285.png
F611569F-389B-4F94-84C1-B55C1898D828.jpeg
E76F43B9-0CE9-4917-9EA9-D69424183E85.jpeg
1E788393-737E-4617-8EE0-F47270F8FCD4.jpeg
913FA630-5982-4D87-BE6E-22CEC81C1D49.png
96B675BA-F3AB-44EE-8B9B-42C2419AC672.png
EA3A849A-AA17-42D1-AF53-01CB7D9694E3.jpeg
41A99D82-00DB-4657-801C-3CECDDC17DFB.png
617AA477-B8F4-4226-A5FC-0CB952A79485.png

One thing is for sure
The Guys incharge of procurement in the Army all need to be sacked
From Inducting Tin Can Commercial Hilux with no roll over cage or a proper LMG mount to accepting thousands of Type 56-II rifles with no rail mounts or any other option to mount an optic least of all a darn handgrip
And that horrible woodenish bakelite stock with absolutely no regard to camouflage or anything of that sort
I swear our men look like they are part of some rag tag afrian militia with these AKs
Utterly disappointing & pathetic to say the least
If only you‘d have bothered to read any of the posts, look at any pictures or videos or done any research at all. Sadly it’s always easier to complain than do any of those things.
 

Pandora

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One thing is for sure
The Guys incharge of procurement in the Army all need to be sacked
From Inducting Tin Can Commercial Hilux with no roll over cage or a proper LMG mount to accepting thousands of Type 56-II rifles with no rail mounts or any other option to mount an optic least of all a darn handgrip
And that horrible woodenish bakelite stock with absolutely no regard to camouflage or anything of that sort
I swear our men look like they are part of some rag tag afrian militia with these AKs
Utterly disappointing & pathetic to say the least
Clearly you havnt gone through the entire thread considering you are making lousy complaints. Rifle procurement for us is almost 5-6 billion $ expenditure. Do you think its easy to replace 1 million rifles? Obviously this big procurement wont be done without TOT and local production so hold your horses it takes time
 

Invictus01

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These and the Modernized AK203 style rifles are both very common. The other one has been seen more often in Combat in FATA and other COIN Ops. Not hard to find photos of it.
Couple of actual AK-103Ms in there too. View attachment 784179 View attachment 784180 View attachment 784181 View attachment 784182 View attachment 784183 View attachment 784184 View attachment 784185 View attachment 784186 View attachment 784187

If only you‘d have bothered to read any of the posts, look at any pictures or videos or done any research at all. Sadly it’s always easier to complain than do any of those things.
Lol
You my friend don't know jack shit about guns
These accessories you see are knock-off Chinese aftermarket parts
Half of these Red dot sights you see don't even hold zero except for a few original aimpoint red dots issued in limited quantities to certain units
Neither have these procurements been made at army level
They are all unit level procurements & mostly sold to them by a guy in Peshawar
I can get you InTouch with him if you like
Have you even held one of these modded AKs? Ever Fired one?
I highly doubt so
These AKs are forward heavy meaning you won't be able to aim down them for much long before muscle fatigue shows up

You're more of a keyboard warrior that picks certain pictures off of the internet to back your argument
 

Invictus01

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FB_IMG_1634050434135.jpg




And Yes I know what I'm talking about because I've imported kits for my personal weapons & I have extensive trigger time behind a lot of firearms(Both Military & Civilian)
The Mods you see on these weapons have been done by me and I wouldn't want to carry an AK with a UTG mount & a bulky Red Dot so yeah
Infact SSG was the only formation that had legit genuine parts on their AKs with Aimpoints but they preferred M4 the moment they got their hands on them cause who would want to carry an AK & clear a compound with a 5+Kg Weapon that they have to hold for extensive periods of time
 

Zarvan

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View attachment 784265



And Yes I know what I'm talking about because I've imported kits for my personal weapons & I have extensive trigger time behind a lot of firearms(Both Military & Civilian)
The Mods you see on these weapons have been done by me and I wouldn't want to carry an AK with a UTG mount & a bulky Red Dot so yeah
Infact SSG was the only formation that had legit genuine parts on their AKs with Aimpoints but they preferred M4 the moment they got their hands on them cause who would want to carry an AK & clear a compound with a 5+Kg Weapon that they have to hold for extensive periods of time
Sir do you have any news on Rifle deal or not ? Also this new signing with Czech Republic.
 

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