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Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

Which rifle should win the competition?

  • FN-SCAR-H

    Votes: 231 43.3%
  • Beretta ARX-200

    Votes: 59 11.1%
  • CZ-806 Bren2

    Votes: 113 21.2%
  • Kalashnikov AK-103

    Votes: 116 21.8%
  • Zavasta M21

    Votes: 15 2.8%

  • Total voters
    533

The Terminator

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You're right and wrong at the same time. Yes not everything is shared but SSG commandos whom I asked told me that they benefit us and not just "mocking some standard CQB exercises and exchanging gear" happens but also a lot of other things including concepts, experiences, etc. are shared.
But only to the closest allies. You can't expect a tier one US SF officer sharing his real experiences in the field with SSGs. China, Turkey etc. yes they are our natural allies.
 

SSGOPERATOR

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But only to the closest allies. You can't expect a tier one US SF officer sharing his real experiences in the field with SSGs. China, Turkey etc. yes they are our natural allies.
Yup exactly. As much as I am told by SSG is that their relationships aren't that good with US(doesn't mean they are completely broken) but cooperation is still done with SAS.
Lolz our chiefs atleast upto Kiyani would have used G3 as a YO, others at a bit higher rank.
Kayani even held an M4 in his hands when he went to SSG HQ. Lol
 
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The Terminator

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See the YouTube channel “Task&purpose”. The US is considering 6.8mm rounds; said to have the stopping power of the 7.62 but closer to the weight of the 5.56mm. Ranges are out to 800 meters effective for rifles with the use of FCS built into scopes and the use of suppressors to minimize acoustic and IR signatures from the muzzle flashes. The US is expected to pick its preferred rifle by the end of the year. I’m sure the PA is watching to see the trend and will ultimately pick a competitive rifle it can have in services for at least a generation or two
That's true US Army is currently suffering from near peer syndrome.

Decades wasted by US on fake war on terror provided ample time to countries like China, Russia etc to catchup with them as far as standard issue equipment is concerned.

NVGs alongwith laser/IR strobes mounted on rifles against contemporary military is like holding a flare in the middle of a desert.
That's why US military is scrambling to regain its qualitative edge against its adversaries. But IMHO it would be a uphill task for them.
As far as 3rd world countries like ourselves are concerned, we would really be screwed if we failed to consider those advancements while procuring our future weaponry. SCAR or AK is already obsolete by those standards and we don't have the economy of Qatar or tech base of Turkey to correct our presently made mistakes in the future.
G3 is as good as SCAR when considering putting holes into your enemies. We don't need the Gucci guns to do the similar job albeit more conveniently and better creature comfort. Doesn't justify pouring hundreds of millions of precious foreign exchange which we don't have much right now.
 

FuturePAF

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That's true US Army is currently suffering from near peer syndrome.

Decades wasted by US on fake war on terror provided ample time to countries like China, Russia etc to catchup with them as far as standard issue equipment is concerned.

NVGs alongwith laser/IR strobes mounted on rifles against contemporary military is like holding a flare in the middle of a desert.
That's why US military is scrambling to regain its qualitative edge against its adversaries. But IMHO it would be a uphill task for them.
As far as 3rd world countries like ourselves are concerned, we would really be screwed if we failed to consider those advancements while procuring our future weaponry. SCAR or AK is already obsolete by those standards and we don't have the economy of Qatar or tech base of Turkey to correct our presently made mistakes in the future.
G3 is as good as SCAR when considering putting holes into your enemies. We don't need the Gucci guns to do the similar job.
Considering our budget, but also defensive posture, If our SSG and similar commando forces are properly equipped along with an elite portion of the Army, they could be used with a good strategy to allow other elements of national power to keep the nation from the threat of war with larger nations. A world class rifle is therefore very important, at least for the frontline troops.

So when picking a rifle, we don’t have to go full Gucci across the force, but should procure based on a doctrine that fits into a strategy that adequately allows us to defending ourselves.
 

SSGOPERATOR

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Considering our budget, but also defensive posture, If our SSG and similar commando forces are properly equipped along with an elite portion of the Army, they could be used with a good strategy to allow other elements of national power to keep the nation from the threat of war with larger nations. A world class rifle is therefore very important, at least for the frontline troops.

So when picking a rifle, we don’t have to go full Gucci across the force, but should procure based on a doctrine that fits into a strategy that adequately allows us to defending ourselves.
@Reichmarshal you know something?
 

Basel

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That is something out of our reach atm, it required immense skills in material science.
There are private companies specially in US who are willing to sell 6.8mm upgrade package to existing ARs.

Problem is that US may not allow it for Pakistan.
 

The Terminator

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Yup exactly. As much as I am told by SSG is that their relationships aren't that good with US(doesn't mean they are completely broken) but cooperation is still done with SAS.

Kayani even held an M4 in his hands when he went to SSG HQ. Lol
I agree. The first and foremost objective of any military joint training or exercise is that to obtain as much intra operability amongst the participating forces as possible, obviously apart from gaining experience from the other side as well. That's why closest allies try to procure similar weapon systems to enhance their intra operability as well. They speak different languages but they try to understand each other as much that they can somehow perform joint operations at some time in future.

I am not seeing US or any of the NATO SF doing joint Ops with SSG in foreseeable future unless it's 100% purely in the interest of the US and we act as their pawns only. On the other hand Joint Ops with Chinese, local militias (Mujahideen), Turks are quite possible as our national interests, for now, converge mostly. Heck even joint Ops with Iranians are more probable than say with French or US SFs unless we are serving them like hired mercenaries.

That's why you would find the countries that are naturally aligned with your's actively cooperating in the field of defense equipment and training.

Anatolian Eagle is win win exercise for all. Qatari Rafales are serving Turks and Pakistanis alike as its most advanced platform that their respective adversaries currently operate. You all know here about IAF better than me. Greece is getting Rafales from France at subsidized prices. Now Qatar has permanently deployed some of its Rafale fighters in Turkey for both the airforce to test their every single capability in combat exercises.

On the other hand Royal Saudi Airforce conducted military exercises with Greece Air force. Isn't it hilarious for you? What's the common ground between both of theose countries apart from their centuries old hatred towards Turkey.
Considering our budget, but also defensive posture, If our SSG and similar commando forces are properly equipped along with an elite portion of the Army, they could be used with a good strategy to allow other elements of national power to keep the nation from the threat of war with larger nations. A world class rifle is therefore very important, at least for the frontline troops.

So when picking a rifle, we don’t have to go full Gucci across the force, but should procure based on a doctrine that fits into a strategy that adequately allows us to defending ourselves.
Aren't we already doing the same! SSG is well equipped, SSG(N) and SSW even lead in that matter. Then comes the LCB which are decently equipped. And now every infantry unit has some sort of their own light commando assets equipped with all necessary equipments and snipers of their own.

I myself watched them rehearsing them and taking positions near the bushes and other concealment, and developing their own tactics within their area of responsibility. Their type 56 had some sort of pictanny rail system on upper receiver and US made red dot mounted on top of that. They were even carrying a sniper rifle which looked to be of LSR category. Obviously they were also equipped with NVGs but wouldn't use them in broad daylight. They belonged to regular infantry unit.

We don't need FN SCAR or M416s to kill our arch enemies. It would require another at least 5 or 6 years for them to equip themselves with AK-12. Even that isn't a earth shattering tech rifle which we can't face them with.

Apart from them against any 1st world major force like US, even SCAR-H would be of no use in future if they succeeded to pull off what they are planning to do now. Their working prototypes are already in the field and it isn't anymore the question of if they would be able to implement their program, the real question is when. And all Pakistanis know we aren't in their good books now for sure.

Cold War 2.0 is already officially initiated and we are the next battlefield for them. We wouldn't be able to stop those world super power competitors from trampling on our soil with hazrat sahib's beloved SCAR in the future. It doesn't make any bigger hole than old rusty G3, neither it provides any advantage in ammo carrying capacity of the soldier nor the Ballistics. AK103 hands down is the most reliable platform of them all.
 

FuturePAF

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I agree. The first and foremost objective of any military joint training or exercise is that to obtain as much intra operability amongst the participating forces as possible, obviously apart from gaining experience from the other side as well. That's why closest allies try to procure similar weapon systems to enhance their intra operability as well. They speak different languages but they try to understand each other as much that they can somehow perform joint operations at some time in future.

I am not seeing US or any of the NATO SF doing joint Ops with SSG in foreseeable future unless it's 100% purely in the interest of the US and we act as their pawns only. On the other hand Joint Ops with Chinese, local militias (Mujahideen), Turks are quite possible as our national interests, for now, converge mostly. Heck even joint Ops with Iranians are more probable than say with French or US SFs unless we are serving them like hired mercenaries.

That's why you would find the countries that are naturally aligned with your's actively cooperating in the field of defense equipment and training.

Anatolian Eagle is win win exercise for all. Qatari Rafales are serving Turks and Pakistanis alike as its most advanced platform that their respective adversaries currently operate. You all know here about IAF better than me. Greece is getting Rafales from France at subsidized prices. Now Qatar has permanently deployed some of its Rafale fighters in Turkey for both the airforce to test their every single capability in combat exercises.

On the other hand Royal Saudi Airforce conducted military exercises with Greece Air force. Isn't it hilarious for you? What's the common ground between both of theose countries apart from their centuries old hatred towards Turkey.
Aren't we already doing the same! SSG is well equipped, SSG(N) and SSW even lead in that matter. Then comes the LCB which are decently equipped. And now every infantry unit has some sort of their own light commando assets equipped with all necessary equipments and snipers of their own.

I myself watched them rehearsing them and taking positions near the bushes and other concealment, and developing their own tactics within their area of responsibility. Their type 56 had some sort of pictanny rail system on upper receiver and US made red dot mounted on top of that. They were even carrying a sniper rifle which looked to be of LSR category. Obviously they were also equipped with NVGs but wouldn't use them in broad daylight. They belonged to regular infantry unit.

We don't need FN SCAR or M416s to kill our arch enemies. It would require another at least 5 or 6 years for them to equip themselves with AK-12. Even that isn't a earth shattering tech rifle which we can't face them with.

Apart from them against any 1st world major force like US, even SCAR-H would be of no use in future if they succeeded to pull off what they are planning to do now. Their working prototypes are already in the field and it isn't anymore the question of if they would be able to implement their program, the real question is when. And all Pakistanis know we aren't in their good books now for sure.

Cold War 2.0 is already officially initiated and we are the next battlefield for them. We wouldn't be able to stop those world super power competitors from trampling on our soil with hazrat sahib's beloved SCAR in the future. It doesn't make any bigger hole than old rusty G3, neither it provides any advantage in ammo carrying capacity of the soldier nor the Ballistics. AK103 hands down is the most reliable platform of them all.
I’m sure Russian industry will make an AK rifle soon that will match the American 6.8 mm with similar effective range, that gets chosen in the end. We should wait for that in my opinion. Best of reliability and performance.
 

The Terminator

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Within its effective range, AK reigns Supreme over all other 5.56 rifles. But considering our eastern border with India ie hilly mountainous LOC, plain lands of Punjab and desert of Southern Punjab and Sindh. All of those topographical areas provide ample opportunity for medium to long range engagements on border areas. That's the reason that 7.62x51 is the necessity of PAK Army. That's why AK103 isn't going to be standard issue rifle for those on border patrol but it would always be a mix of shorter caliber and bigger caliber with extended range.

Our ancestors made a remarkable decision to equip our forces with, by then, the best weapon systems in the world provided by the best manufacturer the H&K. With all their arrogance, still the US, UK and their allies recognize the firepower and utility of the 7.62x51 round. They learned the hard way when their Gucci guns weren't able to do anything against thick medieval style mud walls in Afghanistan and Iraq too.

We have the world's best standard issue calibre in terms of range and penetration in shape of H&K G3. We have one of the best bullets spitting machine in single barrel category ie H&K MG3 which itself has a pedigree of legendary MG34 and MG42s, the most feared bullet spitting weapon of WW2.
God bless those who took the decision half a century ago to equip Pakistani military with those legendary platforms. That's the only reason why India would never gain small arms firepower superiority against us at least for more than a decade in the future too.

AK103 is a natural choice to fill up the role of "SMG" in PAK Army. But for standard issue 7.62x51 or similar caliber rifle, IMHO we can still wait for a few years more to find a worthy replacement. Some sort of 6.5mm creedmoor etc. Is very much doable. 6.5 Creedmoor is similar in dimensions as 7.62x51 but superior in ballistics which can share the same magazine box and platform by changing the barrel of the weapon. 6.5mm is equally effective in Assault rifles, light machine guns and sniper rifles. That's the choice of US SF too.
 

The Terminator

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I’m sure Russian industry will make an AK rifle soon that will match the American 6.8 mm with similar effective range, that gets chosen in the end. We should wait for that in my opinion. Best of reliability and performance.
6.5mm Creedmoor is readily available even in the civilian markets. Anything new like 6.8mm tech would take time to reach Pakistan due to It's unique metallurgy, high chamber pressure, high tech barrels, and recoil mitigation systems. This year US would decide their ammo and if Trump were still be on the Presidential seat, he would have immediately shove the US selected ammo down the throats of its EU allies in the name of freedom and common logistics supplies. Then it's tech would have reached Pakistan in express pace.

But still i have hope from Turkey, which is currently the key for us to the western tech along with Italy and Spain too are our gateway to the west. I still believe Germany could help us out too if we offer them any lucrative deal.

All Army has to do is to play smart here like what PAF did when it was under immense pressure of embargoes and Indian disinformation labs battering Pakistan the hardest and India rolling out massive contracts in the market in order to leave Pakistan high and dry in search of tech support during the crucial phase of JF-17 program. Even then what PAF managed to pull off is nothing less than stunning.

PAK Army's free and easy lunch time has been long over when US would provide their surplus weapons under the cover of coalition support fund to them. Apart from just buying pistols, now Army would have to engage 1st world's private sector companies to supply them the material and tech overtly or covertly it doesn't make any difference how.
 

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