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Pakistan’s Policy of ‘Quid Pro Quo Plus’

Sharma Ji

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Basically Sharmaji wants a Muslim who gets killed by the Hindu majority and does not complain about it.

Sharmaji on his WhatsApp group - Yaar yeh katwe khamoshi sey kyon nahin mar jaate?
The state isn't doing any killing.. some random incidents don't represent an entire 1billion.
 

xeuss

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The state isn't doing any killing.. some random incidents don't represent an entire 1billion.
I'm sure you are also among those who believe that unicorns exist.

The state has killed Muslims. Three examples are below:



 

peagle

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We're fine with criticism, Modi gets more than enough heat from among us Indians anyway.

Not sure but in India mandirs have always been state regulated (finances governed) but not other minority places of worship. What religious laws ? The cow laws have been here since forever, the CAA has nothing to do with any Indian citizen. Minorities are not persecuted by the state, there are problems in society but the state isn't out to persecute anyone. This whole Hindu fascism thing is way overblown in Pakistan and among our leftists (and leftists globally). You people seriously fear mass killings of Indian muslims or what ? :P

I prefer a fair and real secularism too.
Just because something has been around for a while does not make it OK, its a weak excuse, either something is right or it is wrong, there is no middle ground in this case, either you have a secular system or you do not, and you have to be judged accordingly.

If something has been around for a while, but it is against the principles of secularism, then it should have been changed. The finances of religious organisations should not be under state control, it is totally wrong under a secular system. Cow protection laws should not exist, under a secular system. A law that classifies people or anything else according to religion should not exist under a secular system, I hope you understand the basic principle of what is wrong and what's right.

Everything has to stand the test of reasonableness, otherwise, it is open to direct criticism, so it remains wrong. Excuses can be made for anything. If your partner has an affair and you walk in at a wrong time,in a moment of emotional outburst, you kill them, it can be classified as a valid excuse, but, it is still wrong. So please, let's not use excuses to justify something that is clearly wrong.

Get rid of secularism, then do as you please, if you don't, then you are wrong.

This discussion is regarding secularism, so i will stick to that. Therefore, I will disregard the other points you have bought forward. It is a weak sign when a person has to deflect because they do not have strong answers for the core argument.
 

AgNoStiC MuSliM

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A long time ago Oscar ( @SQ8 ) had told @VCheng that guys like him and I were too steeped in our views and were now the past, and that India and Pakistan would evolve on a different tangent different from the steeped narratives carried by our generation (both of us are near the same vintage).

I'd advise you that Oscar was right.

This is a very new India.

And Pakistan by the looks of it.

Cheers, Doc
Oh, I agree with the position that India is evolving on a different tangent, but you're mistaking paranoia & insecurity fueled hatred & bigotry for 'swagger and confidence' - India is essentially Nazi Germany right now, and we know where that ended.

Pakistan is evolving too, but, like the Americans long ago, Pakistan is trying to tame its own Wild West (the negatives that come with its inherent aggressive, honor driven machismo that I mentioned earlier). That doesn't mean the country and society will ever completely be tamed, but a degree of taming is necessary for it to advance.
 

Sharma Ji

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Just because something has been around for a while does not make it OK, its a weak excuse, either something is right or it is wrong, there is no middle ground in this case, either you have a secular system or you do not, and you have to be judged accordingly.

If something has been around for a while, but it is against the principles of secularism, then it should have been changed. The finances of religious organisations should not be under state control, it is totally wrong under a secular system. Cow protection laws should not exist, under a secular system. A law that classifies people or anything else according to religion should not exist under a secular system, I hope you understand the basic principle of what is wrong and what's right.

Everything has to stand the test of reasonableness, otherwise, it is open to direct criticism, so it remains wrong. Excuses can be made for anything. If your partner has an affair and you walk in at a wrong time,in a moment of emotional outburst, you kill them, it can be classified as a valid excuse, but, it is still wrong. So please, let's not use excuses to justify something that is clearly wrong.

Get rid of secularism, then do as you please, if you don't, then you are wrong.

This discussion is regarding secularism, so i will stick to that. Therefore, I will disregard the other points you have bought forward. It is a weak sign when a person has to deflect because they do not have strong answers for the core argument.
India is a pretty complicated place. If only it was that easy to institute true secularism. The upcoming uniform civil code will go a long way in helping true secularism take root in India.
 
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SQ8

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A long time ago Oscar ( @SQ8 ) had told @VCheng that guys like him and I were too steeped in our views and were now the past, and that India and Pakistan would evolve on a different tangent different from the steeped narratives carried by our generation (both of us are near the same vintage).

I'd advise you that Oscar was right.

This is a very new India.

And Pakistan by the looks of it.

Cheers, Doc
That is true for your generation in Many respects - even the Babaji “settling in America” manual is obsolete. But that also applies to my own ideals as the early Millennial. Gen Z has a very different and short information digestion span which is going to and has added a new paradigm as citizens. How they will impact elections and attitudes matters as well.
 

xeuss

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India is a pretty complicated place. If only it was that easy to institute true secularism. The upcoming uniform civil code will go a long way in helping true secularism take root in India.
Another page from the RSS handbook....or rather toolkit?
 

VCheng

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A long time ago Oscar ( @SQ8 ) had told @VCheng that guys like him and I were too steeped in our views and were now the past, and that India and Pakistan would evolve on a different tangent different from the steeped narratives carried by our generation (both of us are near the same vintage).

I'd advise you that Oscar was right.

This is a very new India.

And Pakistan by the looks of it.

Cheers, Doc
Interesting angle, but off topic in this thread I'm afraid.

The best strategy for India would be to make Pakistan overspend on its defense just trying to catch up, and rely on the economic underperformance to become chronic enough to reach a logical end.

The best strategy for Pakistan would be to maintain a minimum credible deterrent to ensure M.A.D. and concentrate on social and economic development.
 

Trango Towers

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The first time I heard him speak was sadly on youtube, the usual speech, and an interview at an American think tank. I swear I felt so proud listening to a confident and thoroughly intelligent Pakistani. If we have people like him, I know we are doing something right, it makes me feel we are going to be just fine.

God bless him.
There are many but sadly not in Parliament
 

peagle

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India is a pretty complicated place. If only it was that easy to institute true secularism. The upcoming uniform civil code will go a long way in helping true secularism take root in India.
Every large country is also complicated, with a unique set of problems, it shouldn't be used as an excuse. But, I do hope you guys find peaceful and fair accommodation for everyone, it's good for India.
There are many but sadly not in Parliament
Politics is a dirty business, I am happy he is where he can make an effective contribution and make a difference. What makes me happy is that the system recognised, nurtured, and allowed people like him to succeed, that can only be a good thing.

I'm sure with time, especially if politics becomes cleaner, people like him will feel confident enough to enter politics, still, it is idiots like us, who have to make sure we vote for the right people, sadly we don't.
 

Sharma Ji

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Every large country is also complicated, with a unique set of problems, it shouldn't be used as an excuse. But, I do hope you guys find peaceful and fair accommodation for everyone, it's good for India.
It's actually not that bad or even heading that way (genocide etc) so the rhetoric from Pak rings a bit hollow, is all I was saying.
 

peagle

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It's actually not that bad or even heading that way (genocide etc) so the rhetoric from Pak rings a bit hollow, is all I was saying.
I do understand what you were saying, but it's the same line I've heard here many times, many of them seem to be hate-mongers, I don't feel that from you, but it is the same line.

I think it needs to be understood that just because things do not happen at every street corner, does not mean bad things are not happening beyond normal. There is so much information out there to prove that things that shouldn't be hapening are happening.

Besides everything else, from my personal experience, I have a lot of Indian friends, and I have seen the change, it was never perfect, I could feel issues were always there, but it has gotten worse. The Muslims are at a point of thinking us and them. the hindus already feeling that way, it's not in the words but expressions, the interactions, things I do not wish to share in a public forum because it would breed hate. I honestly wish you guys find peace and settle down so we as countries can start to find our peace and settle down.

If europeans can learn to live with each other, I do not see why the heck can't we. but it's a process, part of the process involves being honest with the realities and finding solutuons.
 
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